It reached 37ºF today so I decided to start up my '96 Tiger and '96 Sprint. The Tiger started up just fine. Then I tried the Sprint. Turn the key, headlights come on, press the starter, the headlights go OFF (never seen that before) a little click and silence. Turn the ignition off again, on again. Lights don't even flicker. No click.
I check the fuses, all 100%. I take a BRAND NEW battery and put it in. This time I get a much quieter click and still no headlights. Silence. On again, off again. Not even a click. Mind you it started and ran fine in November. No hint of trouble back then.
I figure I either killed the starter relay switch, the ignition switch or fried the starter itself.
Any ideas?
with a jumper cable hooked to battery , attach the positive cable to the starter motor directly at the wire terminal on starter , it should spin the engine , that will rule out stater motor , next test would be to jump 12 volt power to starter relay and it should engage stater motor . actually try applying 12 volts directly to starter relay first . starter motor spins the first test would be not necessary
my bet is shorted headlight relay or dirty contacts on starter switch
or a stuck relay in the sidestand switch circuit
and for the really dumb stuff ...........the kill switch isn't on is it ?
I'd check some earths Nik. If battery is New and fuses are OK it's got to be a bad connection somewhere... given that the lights and the start relay seem 'soft' and don't like it when you want to use the power I'd look first at the neg battery connection to the frame... and on from there.
Bad contacts on the start switch can cause issues too as it controls the relay circuits
Thanks you guys!
Its in storage across town and I'm at home now. I have a spare car battery, I'll that that and some jumper cables and try it out tomorrow. The Sprint has never had a single problem since I got it in pieces and put it back together (previous owner hit a 200 lbs buck at 50 mph) in 2006: and absolute champ for 25k or more. It now has 42k on it. I guess my string of good luck had to end somewhere!
I'll report back what I find.
You know I've done that with the kill switch before: had it off by accident and the bike won't start. But the engine still turns over. So it can't be that, right? The white markings around the kill switch are all gone and I have to look at a picture to know if it's in the wrong position, but I think it was OK.
As far as I remember the engine on my 04 doesn't turn over with the kill switch off. But then I never use the dratted thing.
My engine does not turn either with the kill switch in the off position - 2006
Every time I had a vehicle that would click and turn off when I hit the starter had a bad connection at the battery. Loosen, clean and reassemble. Use grease to prevent corrosion.
Cosmo
This is a '96 Sprint. Same engine (and same frame?) as the Tiger. I know for sure the engine turns over with the the kill switch off because I let someone else ride it once and when he parked it he flicked the kill switch off (I never do) and when I turned the engine over it wouldn't start, no matter how hard I tried until I reversed the switch.
Or am I crazy?
It won't do any harm to grease the connections of the battery, that's for sure.
Quote from: "Colonel Nikolai"This is a '96 Sprint. Same engine (and same frame?) as the Tiger. I know for sure the engine turns over with the the kill switch off because ..................
95 tiger kill switch on nothing happens
96 tiger kill switch on nothing happens
two 98 tigers kill switch on nothing happens
2002 Bonneville kill switch on nothing happens
just tried all 5
so if the sprint is turning the starter motor with the kill switch on I would be suspect of a bad relay for starter circuit that has finally gone tits up or someone has modified something before you became owner ................
get out the multimeter and a wiring diagram and start checking
:shock:
Mustang, now you have me really worried! Either I misremember the earlier incident (2 summers ago) or the Sprint is set up completely wacky. I suppose it's possible: The rear shock on the Sprint is completely not original and I did have one mechanic decide that my carburetor needles and jets were "aftermarket", so some tweaking has occurred.
I'll have to break out the wiring diagram for sure. Not just the Sprint, but my own wiring diagram might be in order :oops:
Mustang you just made me remember one thing from when I got the bike in pieces from the previous owner: there was a relay that was bad in the wiring harness under the instrument cluster. I cannot for the life of me remember which one it was, but it might have been the headlight relay. The bike was so new to me then that I didn't know what was "normal" for it, so I don't remember the symptoms very clearly, but I remember this relay was bad and there was another short in the wiring harness that I had to track down, too and until I fixed those two things the bike wouldn't start. Similar deal.
Thanks for the help.
Quote from: "cosmo"Every time I had a vehicle that would click and turn off when I hit the starter had a bad connection at the battery. Loosen, clean and reassemble. Use grease to prevent corrosion.
Cosmo
I had this. Rode up to the shop where I bought my 2005, had coffee and a bit crack (chat) went to start it, click,,, nothing. I'd put the battery back in and not tightened the screws properly in my haste. A quick tweak with a 10mm spanner and we were back in business... :oops: :oops: :oops:
Well, I went over to where I'm storing the Sprint: in a friend's second garage where he keeps furniture (pictured). Cold and wet!
I tried greasing the contacts on the new battery. I was going to try to jump the starter relay as Mustang suggested when I realized I didn't have the clearance with the clips I had to make it happen. To do it right I'd need to fashion heavy probes with thicker gauge wire I could hook to a battery: there is less than an inch of space between the battery box and the starter relay.
On a hunch I brought with me a small AC-powered car charger that had a 55 amp "start" setting. A split-second touching of its big clips together at this setting produced quite a spark. I hooked these to the new battery I put into the Sprint. I turned the key. Headlights and dashboard lights went on. But the RPMs on the tach went to 7000 (!?!?!) and stayed there. I touched the start button. The bike turned over maybe 1/3 of a rev (I heard a spark plug go "pop"!). All the lights dimmed, including the overhead light in the garage :shock: Turned the key off. Turned it on again and touched the start button again: this time I heard what sounded like the sprag clutch spinning. A quiet, fast 'tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick...' in the center of the motor. I quickly let off the button.
I think I'm going to leave this for warmer weather where I can take off most of the body panels to get at the electricals better with these heavy probes. Spend an afternoon testing relays and such.
CN, put it in 6th gear and try turning the engine over using the back wheel - just to make sure nothing's jammed. I'm not liking the sprag clutch noise either.... :shock:
Ok I've tried running the positive cable to an installed battery from the starter relay with a few small sparks but no turn over. Is my starter relay hosed, then? I also tried this trick withthe connector below the relay contacts to the same effect.
Did you try turning the motor over by hand to make sure it was free?
I didn't try that: I will. It's just that the bike was running PERFECTLY right before it was shut off so it just seems really far fetched that the engine would be seized or something.
However when I turn the key it sounds like an electrical fire near the instrument cluster.
Sounds like a short.
I didn't want to wade straight in with the big scare ideas that's why I asked if it was free. My thoughts were that if your sprag gave up (which we all know is big bucks so I didn't want to bring it up) and somehow jammed the engine the electrics would then fry themselves trying to turn it over.
Still wanting to be positive though, my sister's Legend had a problem similar to yours and the dealer cleaned up all the contacts, changed the battery and it was fine. I had a sprag go on my Trident (same motor as Steamer) and it didn't jam, it just spun up with a light clicking noise.
Here's hoping I'm way off.
Yeah I think it's a short, too, but now that you put that idea in my head ... I ... think I need to go an lie down for a quarter of an hour or something. :(
I stripped the entire body off and I've opened up the wiring harnesses to look for problems. I don't see anything except the harness is pretty hacked up by yours truly since much of it was naffed up by a large hunk of wild game that went through the front end in 2006. Never been a problem since, but who knows.
I'll try to turn the engine from the back wheel. Thanks. (gulp)
good luck....
Okay bad news. The engine appears to be seized. I think we do in fact have a total sprague clutch failure.
Got the bike off the centerstand. Ran it down the alleyway on foot with the clutch disengaged. Popped the clutch, the engine utterly won't turn over. Completely locked the rear wheel. Tried it a couple of times.
Boooooo!
before you assume it is locked up ...............
take out the sparkplugs and pull the right side crankshaft cover off
with a wrench or ratchet and socket on the crankshaft nut see if the motor will turn over it should easily turn with no plugs in it .
and to add to your woes ........I highly doubt that the sprag starter clutch will seize the motor
Mustang, I was afraid of that... But it was running PERFECTLY the last time I started it! Arrrgh!
I've pop-started this bike before: I've been able to turn the motor over by pushing it down the road, jumping on it and popping the clutch. Boom, starts right up, usually on the first try.
Yeah OK I'll give your suggestion a go. Thanks, Mustang. What if I just pulled the spark plugs and tried moving the engine with the back wheel? This would avoid having to get a gasket...
that will work too
you might have a cylinder full of gas after sitting all winter and its hydro locked you will know right quick with the plugs out
does the older sprint have the vacuum operated petcock like a trophy does if so it could well be full of gas
Pretty sure it does not have a petcock like that. It works just like the Tiger. At least when I look at the two petcocks they appear to be the same except the Sprint has a plastic dial where the Tiger has a metal one.
Well, maybe it is a vacuum operated pet rooster after all? It does have three positions: on prime reserve?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petcock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petcock)
pull the plugs check for gas there isnt an off position on the petcock so to speak
Plug number 2 vomited fresh oil all over my hands when I pulled it. Wiping off the plug reveals a clean surface with consistent deposts with the other two plugs. Somehow #2 got clean fresh oil on it without burning? All plugs running a tad lean with tiny amounts of white mottling on a medium dark gray surface.
I can just barely turn the engine 1/8 of a revolution of the wheel. Can't budge it any more. Will keep trying.
that's not good
I was hoping you found a cylinder full of gas............I wonder why the motor is seized ?It was a runner when you parked it correct ?
my next move would be to remove the right hand crank cover and with bike in neautral see if you can spin it with a wrench on the crankshaft
if yes then something in tranny is locked up if no your motor is stuck hard
Yes! Bike seemed to be running perfectly when I put it away last winter.
But I took it off the centerstand and pushed it down the alley and popped the clutch. Fart, fart, fart, fart, fart, fart :shock: At least that's what it sounded like to me. Engine turns over just fine. It looks like my battery is dead and I didn't bring a charger so this'll have to wait until I have time to come over again.
I think I'm back to looking for a short, bad relay or fuseable link somewhere?
Thanks for sticking with me mustang and bixxerbob. Will keep trying.
:x
A small amount of fresh oil would be enough to produce the hydraulic lock Mustang was talking about. Having let that lock out it now turns over. If you don't find a short the problem was probably the hydraulic lock all along HOWEVER having stalled the starter motor it's possible you fried some cabling or the heavy current side of the starter relay. Good luck with your investigating.
PS One cylinder filling with frsh oil over a period in store? I'm assuming by fresh you mean clean as opposed to blackened so is that the same colour as in your crankcase? If it's not you have magic going on there.... If it is, it's got to have come from somewhere and top guess is down a valve guide although there's not really enough oil trapped in the head area when the engine's stopped anyway if I remember rightly (@Mustang?).
Yes, I had just changed the oil on it last year and had ridden it a little before storing it. The oil in the crankcase is golden. The oil in cyl #2 was also thick and golden. It doesn't make sense to me either.
I removed the starter relay and bench tested it. I can't get it to click so I'm going to replace that.
To recap: When the key is turned, nothing (much) happens. What does happen is after a few seconds the tachometer goes to about 7,500 RPMS :shock: then one of the headlight relays :?: and the starter solenoid buzz. Touching / fiddling with the wiring in the front modifies this behavior.
Ok here is what I've done:
1. Removed the plugs to check if the engine is seized. With the plugs out, the engine turns when the bike is pushed as expected.
2. Replaced solenoid. No effect.
3. Replaced every relay between the battery and the ignition switch. No effect.
4. Tested the voltage coming out of the start button to the start solenoid. It comes in at 12 volts. This is OK.
5. Found two suspicious places in the ignition wiring harness. Resoldered them.
6. Found one suspicious place in the instrument wiring harness. Resoldered that too.
Here is what I thinking: I should replace the harnesses with good used ones I can find on ebay. The reason I think this is because they're quite hacked up at this point and, more importantly, the behavior of starting indicates that there is some kind of massive short there still.
Just to be clear, since redoing these solders in the two harnesses, I cannot cause the behavior to change when I fiddle with the harnesses. I see consistently reading of 7.5k on the tachometer and the buzzing front relay and starter solenoid.
Have you tried the really dumb and obvious thing like put a known good battery in the bike ...........
even though you see twelve volts doesn't mean the battery is any good , try the batt from your tigger in it and try that batt in your tigger
that will eliminate the very obvious !
Usually when your tach shoots up high like that the battery is junk .
Well I was using a brand new battery. But you know what? I'm going drive the tigger over there right now and try it. Thanks Mustang.
Ummm... mustang? Shoul I have my username changed to Col. Stupid? Because I put the tigger battery in and ... she turned right over. Like butter. Life is beautiful when I hear that gentle drum of pistons that can only come from a trumpet, no matter how stupid I am.
Thanks again mustang.
:hello2 :eusa_clap :hello2
Quite a lot of new batteries are DOA and although they may show 12V have no power in them at all. I bought a Westco last year and it looked OK but wouldn't do anything - immediately replaced by the supplier and no further problems.
Yeah this one came from batteries plus and I bought it last winter. I should have known it was a cheap battery: the hardware was kinda crappy in that the nuts in the terminals were too low to screw in normally. Had to put a piece of tape under each nut to raise it high enough that you could get it to catch the screw threads. Never seen that on a battery before. I won't buy one from them again.