One of the most annoying problems going right back to when I first got my Girly has been a slightly surging, snatchy throttle under 3,000 revs. Sometimes it's worse than others, and every time I tried something I fooled myself that I'd fettled it only to find after a long run that I hadn't really.
Bit by bit I've worked my way through everything: throttle body air leaks, IACV air leaks, IACV checks, exhaust leaks (I know - that's popping and banging but I had that too) fuel maps, spare ECU, air temp sensor, air pressure sensor pipe, the works.
So today I changed the throttle position sensor and,,,,,
RESULT!!!
I really have fixed it this time! Two clues back up the excellent ride I had this afternoon with the throttle behaving just as I would expect it too - even picking up smoothly out of corners.
First clue was immediately after I changed it, the Tuneboy fuel map that shows the throttle calculation in use was rock steady whereas it used to jump about a bit.
Second clue came when I put the old sensor on a scope. There were a few spikes in the low throttle range.
So, theorising for a minute, if this sensor was the volume control on an old transistor radio it would crackle just as they used to do when the volume was adjusted when the pot got worn. So I guess the ECU was seeing spikes instead of a steady voltage and was trying to adjust the fueling to match.
One for the knowledge base I think. With Tuneboy it would be easy to diagnose if it happened again. Otherwise, I'd be putting a scope on it while still on the bike.
Hi Bixxer
That sounds exactly like my bike, and it is still doing it now. I will certainly try this and hopefully it will sort mine out also.
I know I could the research myself but......seen as you've done it already :D could I be cheaky and ask for the part number and cost of this item, and if it is an off the shelf part or if it needs to be specially ordered.
Thanks.....an excited Rob :D
Very useful - filed for future reference, although the revised map has made mine absolutely smooth.
QuoteFirst clue was immediately after I changed it, the Tuneboy fuel map that shows the throttle calculation in use was rock steady whereas it used to jump about a bit.
Is this using A/F 1 when the engine's running?
Cracking bit of info. Mine does that but its around 2250rpm and when your crawling in traffic etc. Its more noticeable in a certain gear. Is that what yours is, sorry WAS doing? Also mine pops in the overun but not all the time. I thought all bikes dids that especially high in the revs and are you some sort of NASA scientist or something. It takes me all my time to just to follow your e-mails :lol:
nice one mate, glad you got it sorted, another one for the knowledge bank.
Quote from: "moose"... could I be cheaky and ask for the part number and cost of this item, and if it is an off the shelf part or if it needs to be specially ordered. :D
Dealer had to order it in, £35 but came the next day. Don't forget, you need to order the throttle body gasket as well (I think that was about 69p) because you have to take the TBs off to get at it. How to do the TBs is covered in my post here:
http://tigertriple.com/forum/viewtopic. ... tle+bodies (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,6777&highlight=throttle+bodies)
Only addition is unplug the sensor, remove the two torx screws holding it in place, fit the new one, replace the TBs. Be careful with the torx screws they're threadlocked in and the heads are really soft. Make sure the torx tool is a really good fit, Don't use cheap ones!!
I checked mine afterwards with the Tuneboy to see if the zero position needed re-setting but it was fine.
Iansoady: "Is this using A/F 1 when the engine's running? " Yes, it only uses AF2 when you're on 100% engine load (which is not the same as 100% throttle, depending on revs and speed, 100% load can be from 30-40% throttle opening).
AESDJ: It was worst at very light throttle and engine loads at 2-3,000rpm. It was also snatchy when opening the throttle. Now it's just, well.... normal - like all my other bikes have been. It still pops on overrun a bit but no where near as bad as it used to be. Checking the whole exhaust system for leaks to prevvent air being drawn in can help a lot. I also found an easy way to do this: most non-franchise car dealers have a smoke device these days for checking leaks on turbo systems. It's just as good at detecting leaks on exhausts. They just put the smoke pipe and a bung into your can and watch for where the white smoke comes out.
Got up this morning and thought "Is it really fixed this time?" so went for a ride.
It is.
What a relief!!!
I've got a scope (used it twice 15 years ago...) how did you measure the TPS?
Noticed mine is doing this. Thought it went away when I balanced the TB's... apparently it didn't.
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Iansoady: "Is this using A/F 1 when the engine's running? " Yes, it only uses AF2 when you're on 100% engine load (which is not the same as 100% throttle, depending on revs and speed, 100% load can be from 30-40% throttle opening).
So presumably holding a fixed throttle opening, the highlighted box was jumping up & down the load axis? I assume you'd see it on the fuel map view as well as a varying TP.
Quote from: "iansoady"Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Iansoady: "Is this using A/F 1 when the engine's running? " Yes, it only uses AF2 when you're on 100% engine load (which is not the same as 100% throttle, depending on revs and speed, 100% load can be from 30-40% throttle opening).
So presumably holding a fixed throttle opening, the highlighted box was jumping up & down the load axis? I assume you'd see it on the fuel map view as well as a varying TP.
Not exactly. It was on tickover, the TPS showing zero, but the AF1 map jumping about - anything up to three squares up and right of base.
EB. Testing the TPS on the scope wasn't as straight forward as I thought it would be. Putting 12v DC through it and monitoring the output didn't reveal anything - I naively thought (I'm mechanical not electrical remember) that by moving the TPS I'd see a simple voltage variation on the screen. In the end I had to generate a signal, get the wave up on the screen and then watch for blips as I moved the TPS.
I haven't messed with that thing since trade school. Do I need a signal generator? I don't think I've got one of those anymore (ever did)?
Nah, I used the output from an old battery charger. Cheap ones are only half rectified.
LOL you're going to have to draw this out for me so I don't electrocute myself :)
Maybe I'm over thinking it but you may literally need to draw me a picture. :oops:
Nearly, I did it this way:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/Scope.png)
That makes more sense...
So you pulled the TPS and connected a 12v car charger to it, or you pulled the battery and connected the charger to the battery leads, or gutted a charger and used part of it? I'm trying to wrap my head around this one :? Apparently if you don't use it you do in fact loose it.
Not battery, I used the charger, which generates a 50hz half-rectified wave form (that's UK mains, USA is probably different - 60hz I think?). It's not as clean as a signal genny but is adequate. By moving the TPS I could see disruptions to the wave form which I interpreted as 'noise'. Of course I could be wrong - I'm no expert at this - I could be making the evidence fit the hypothesis... The Tuneboy evidence was more compelling I think.
Interesting...
I'll have to test that charger I have and see if it will fit the bill.
Hi all,
I took my 2006 Tiger (7700 miles) to the dealer yesterday to have them look into the surging problem. My bike's symptoms are exactly as you have described, with the surging/snatchiness at around 2000 - 2500 rpm. As expected, they found nothing wrong. They checked for fault codes (none) and checked the TPS closed throttle position value (zero like it should be) and said that throttle response during the test ride was excellent.
I mentioned the details in this thread, and they said they believed me, but they found nothing wrong. They even suggested that I may not be used to the power this bike has. I've put almost 4000 mile on in 8 months, so while I am not exactly a seasoned Tiger veteran, I am not exactly new to the bike.
Does anyone have a suggestion? Should I just bite the bullet and order up a new TPS and gasket and do it myself, or take it back to the dealer and have them try harder?
Any ideas would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Don
It worked for me, but can't guarrantee it will for you. It's not expensive though so worth a try. And certainly a lot easier than playing with maps - which you can do now with the new freeware!!
It worked for me !!!
I've tried a lot of things and the rough running was just getting worse.
With the new TPS and iridium plugs my wonderful bike is back.
In my helmet, no-one cam hear me scream :-)
Thanx for the instructions. Regarding the bolts holding the throttle body, you really need high quality Torx-bits.
Be careful because you need a lot of force to loosen them. I think they are standard 8.8 strength,
a bit stronger than A4 stainless, so I didn't change mine.
I havn't checked the 0-position of the TPS yet but the cable to use with
TuneECU is on the way. No problem driving as it is though.
Glad you had a result LTB :wink:
Hey Bixxer,
I'm having the exact same trouble up to 4000rpm (1999 885i Tiger), BUT if I do the Triumph 12 minute reset, it runs great for a while, then the hesitations slowly come back. If it's a bad TPS I wouldn't expect the reset to "fix" it. Another big clue is that the bike was running fine after a reset, then I got poured on for about 5-10 minutes and the symptoms returned immediately during the storm. It slowly returned to normal after the rain passed. Some other sensor perhaps?
Quote from: "Wiggus"Hey Bixxer,
I'm having the exact same trouble up to 4000rpm (1999 885i Tiger), BUT if I do the Triumph 12 minute reset, it runs great for a while, then the hesitations slowly come back. If it's a bad TPS I wouldn't expect the reset to "fix" it. Another big clue is that the bike was running fine after a reset, then I got poured on for about 5-10 minutes and the symptoms returned immediately during the storm. It slowly returned to normal after the rain passed. Some other sensor perhaps?
My guess is TPS... I'm having the same troubles as you and have plugged my bike into TuneECU only to find my throttle is at 0, but my AF/1 map boxes jump and my idle is never EVER steady... I have it set to 1250 over 90 degrees, and it wanders between 1050 and 1230, never hitting 1250 and never staying still.
I just ordered the gasket and sensor from BikeBandit.com.... should take a month to get here (Back-order) and cost about 70 bucks. Worth it in my opinion.
Danny, your wandering tickover is symptomatic of air leaks, which can be the gasket, IACV hoses or a sticky IACV itself.
I know you've got massive airflow on your Tiger but having said that folks like Chris Canning are runnning the airbox with the baffle torn out so I wouldn't think that is your problem alone.
Some questions to ask yourself (not really for you Danny as you've already covered most of this but for others reading it later):
Is the IACV working ok? Hook up TuneECU and cycle the IACV, it should move to the limits of its range of movement without any glitches.
Is the pipework sound? The IACV corrugated pipes can have small splits in them which are almost impossible to see so a little pressure test might be in order (block one end, fit a bit more tube to the other,submerge them in water and blow through them).
Likewise, the plastic sleeves that connect the pipes to the IACV and throttle bodies can get a bit tired, make sure they don't leak either.
If you have a Scottoiler hooked up to one of the IACV tubes make sure there's no leaks on that pipe either. Might be worth disconnecting Scottoiler and blanking off the T piece....
Hook up the tank while the airbox is off. Is there any difference in the lumpiness?
As the throttle bodies have to come off and also to do the gasket, change the TPS and gasket at the same time. It's a few quid, and it might be one or the other, but why do the work twice?
When you've done the gasket and TPS, and put the airbox back on, make sure it seals properly around the IACV (mine didn't - I ended up making a 6mm gasket out of closed cell foam) you can check by removing the air filter and looking down into the airbox. Also make sure the white plastic elbow that takes the pipe that goes to the ECU (rear right hand side of the box) seals in its grommet properly. I didn't think it mattered, but it does. Likewise the hose from the crankcase (under right rear of airbox).
Having done all of this at some point or other, and changed the crank sensor, and extensively reworked the fuel maps mine runs as better than it's ever done, but it's not perfect. I'm convinced now that when I'm trying to do 30 mph at around 2500 - 3000 rpm and it starts to hesitate, it's not the maps or anything else. It's simply the ECU doesn't know what to do with the fuel on a steady throttle and light engine load and is constantly under and over fuelling.
Just had a brainstorm ... :?: if the chain is incorrectly adjusted ie too slack, and is whipping about under a light load, that would constantly change the load on the engine maybe leading to the snatching. Clutching at straws maybe but it's worth looking into. :)
Lets not overlook the obvious (and cheap). I just replaced my filter (K&N, so sue me), hogged out the airbox restrictor, and replaced the plugs (NGK, same as stock).
Bike does not surge anymore. Picks up cleanly from 1500 rpm under load. and is a good deal more powerful.
I think I may have had a sparking plug going off, as well as flow problems with the stock filter (installed backwards from new).
YMMV. '06 Tigger
Cosmo