**Warning long post ahead!*
Hello guys, my name is Stu and I'm in Inverness, Scotland. Been lurking on this forum since I bought my Steamer in September 2009 (I've also got an '82 BMW R100RS and a Royal Enfield Bullet 500) and I managed to get some decent riding in before it started to play up a wee bit - just feeling a little sluggish on the pick-up and stuff, although admittedly I was only really doing a bit of in-town in the last few weeks before the problem started.
That was getting into the end of November but then the snow came so I just decided to lay her up for the winter anyway and get on with a service and fault-finding when the weather improved a bit, but partly due to a few things coming up (not least breaking my ankle on my snowboard 6 weeks ago!) I've left it until now to actually get round to the fault-finding mission.
So quick run through then - bike's a '96 steamer with just shy of 23ks on her, before I started all this the main problem was that I felt there was a little bit of sluggishness in the pick-up but nothing major - had been running fine from when a bought her though. I got a simple service done which just consisted of new plugs, oil and filter change and air filter clean (was a K 'n' N number), but after putting things back together and dropping in a freshly charged battery there was still a definite misfire. This seemed to get worse higher in the range, but almost hard to tell it was there at idle apart from being a bit more lumpy than normal - no problems starting though.
Pulling the plugs with the fresh ones in place I could see that cylinder 2 was still virgin - no combustion at all and I was going through the revs a bit just to check carbs etc. So onto here, quick search of other threads reveal the coils to be a weak point. Mine are PVL ones, which seem to be the better ones, but nevertheless I tested them with multimeter and all came up with similar resistance readings (same with HT leads). Just to make sure I switched the cy3 and cy2 coils and leads about to see if this produced any joy from cy2, but no (I even switched the plugs too, and the virgin one got all dirty in cy3).
Carbs were then pulled and dismantled and cleaned. Float bowl heights are sound and there were no noticable blockages. I didn't touch the sync stuff as I don't have a vacuum guage so this could possibly be a problem? Either way, all reassembled and still no fire from c2.
The only thing I haven't checked as yet is the valves, but taking the engine out of the frame to get at the valves is really on the limit of my ability (I'm only an amateur mechanic despite owning a Royal Enfield...). They were last done at either the 15000 or 18000 mile service (not sure which, but I have receipt from previous owner somewhere) so could they need done again?
Starting to get a bit miffed now TBH as the really good weather is already here and with my leg almost ready to come out of plaster I want to be enjoying the Tig ASAP! I know these bikes do go wrong, but I have gelled with this beast in a way that I have only ever done with my Enfield and I really don't want to be forced to chop it in for an 1150GS (which was the other option for purchase when I bought the Tig). So please can anyone give me any ideas of anything else it could be before I'm forced to give my local dealers 'the call' asking them to take it away?
Cheers, Stu
Oh, and whilst I'm here, here's a few pics of some places I visit...
My Enfield - Outside Braemar
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3435/4001017060_7e255a6ee2.jpg)
On the famed road into Applecross
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2562/4000239259_75d9992361.jpg) (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2653/4001029918_20919546e1.jpg)
And finally my Steamer just outside Achnasheen
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3446/3975208446_ca83003e7d.jpg)
you don't have to pull the engine out to check the valves
see this thread here http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,34259
when you say virgin plug on #2 does it come out wet with petrol or dry
if dry then theres your problem its not getting fuel
and # 2 is the 'MASTER ' cylinder so my thought is turn the idle up with the adjuster and see if #2 comes alive if it does but engine is idling too fast then you will need to do a carb sync by adjusting the screws on #1 and #3 carb linkage to reduce the idle by matching the vacuum setting of #2 on #3 and #1
Some fantastic scenery there! Thanks for the pics!
Mustang will be along shortly to help you with your mechanical woes. :D
Is it hard to start? Tight intake valves will usually cause this symptom long before the cyclinder dies completely. A compression gage may tell you a little about what's going on in cylinder 2. And while you've got it out, hook the plug up and ground the threads to the engine and see if you are getting any spark at the #2 plug.
Edit: Damn that Mustang guy is fast. :lol:
Cheers guys!
So Mustang, 2 things - 1) do I just loosen the screws on the camshaft cover then it'll lift off? I assumed cause there was barely enough room to remove plug 2 that it wouldn't come off without the engine out...and 2) without wanting to sound too much like a Neophyte, how wet would wet be? I mean when I pulled it there weren't obvious droplets on the plug (it smelled a bit of petrol but I dunno if that was just the environment I was in - or my hands!), but should I pull plug 2 and place it on paper and if there's moisture on it that way or would there be obvious droplets?
And JetDocX, don't have any trouble starting it - fires up just as it did before just with a more 'twinny' sound. There is a decent fat blue spark from all 3 plugs when pulled too. Also was going to give the compression test thing a go, but figured that I prob wouldn't be able to get the engine hot enough to get the accurate reading - thus if I've exhausted all other possibilities and still no joy then send it to someone who can do the valves.
it will be wet with gasoline and you can smell it
now if you have a nice fat spark on it and you had fuel getting to it it would run (#2)
my bet is you are not getting fuel from #2 carb .......turn the idle adjuster way up and see if #2 comes alive
and if no joy you need to do a compression test like Jetdocx said
if you don't have good compression you could have valves with no clearance on #2 possibly the exhausts and or intakes
generally the intakes tighten up
what happens when you put the choke on ?
I'll give it a go again tomorrow (doubt my neighbours would appreciate me giving the Tig a fast idle at 10pm!), but as I said I don't think the plug was soaking anyway...but if I increase the idle screw and there was a blockage somewhere in the line would this not just affect the idle circuit? The cylinder refuses to fire throughout the throttle range, and it doesn't make any difference if the choke is on...
Sorry for all the questions - turns out that in the 40yrs since my Enfield was designed British engineering got a wee bit more complicated...
+1 on the other guys diagnoses, sounds more like a compression issue.
Good to see another Jockanese Steamer :D
That Braemar shot is a cracker, Heatbeat with a dash of single malt :thumbsup
Hi Suitor_Stu
Welcome to this grrreat forum I joined earlier this year because I treated myself on(with?) a beauty: Caspian Blue Steamer 1997 with Daytona cams, BOS exhausts, alarm, GIVI set & centerstand.
Blue is the way to go (others might not agree here :lol: ).
Now I'm rebuilding for a short trip to Scotland from 12-15 May.
You're from Inverness I see. We do not come quite there but in the neighbourhood => Loch Ness....Ft. William...Queensferry etc...
Nice pics too....the Applecross Road (& Skye) we will visit nex time.
cheers
Markus
Right then lads - Got in from work today and though 'bugger it I'm getting myself a beer and going to set to work on the bike'. SO as such, didn't bother the fast idle check but went straight ahead and pulled the head off the Tig...
Anyway, my clearances in mm were as follows;
Cy1
0.20 0.20
0.11 0.12
Cy2
0.20 0.18
0.09 0.08
Cy3
0.18 0.18
0.15 0.13
So as you can see the intakes on Cy2 (my misfiring cylinder) are slightly out. Question now is though is this a big enough difference to be causing it? Certainly makes sense when I think about the symptoms - eg that it would die if throttle opened quickly, but could cope (well apart from the misfire) with slow increase in throttle, but it's only 0.01mm from what is considered normal!
So I take it this £50 shim tool is the way forward then? Not going to lie, not completely enthused about the prospect of spending more money on 'boring' things like shim tools, when it could be spent on other 'fun' things like beer and petrol, but I suppose I can't spend it on petrol till it runs on all 3 again!
Would it be worth my while changing all the shims whilst I'm in here - ie changing the ones right on the limits at 0.20/0.15 to something more middling in the range? Again, never really worked on this sort of machine before (My Enfield's tappets are regularly adjusted through a window on the engine at the roadside using finger pressure and a 10mm spanner!).
Cheers again guys,
Stu
the intakes on #2 while out of spec won't be causing the problem you are having ......they won't give you trouble until they are at almost zero clearance .
I would put the valve cover back on for now and find out what the real reason # 2 isn't firing
but you do need to tend to the tight intakes eventually and when you do set them on the high side of the spec ..15 mm
and pull the cams if you have to do all 6 intakes .you won't need a shim tool
Do a compression test or at least crank up the idle to see if #2 comes alive
your carb sync could be wacky
a compression test will tell the story
if you got spark , fuel and compression it WILL run
something is missing on # 2 in that equation .
and @ MtheTiger
You're going to have a good time! You seeing family/friends whilst over here? I ask because you put Queensferry in your destination list and whilst I'm sure it's a grand place, it's not famed for being a great biking route - especially when you're heading for the west coast!
If you want my advice (and feel free to tell me where to shove it of you don't!) I would be looking to spend a wee bit more time on the west...anywhere north and/or west of Fort William will be decent riding, and although the A82 up the side of Loch Ness is an amazing ride too, it can be all too full of caravans/mobile homes and Mr. Plod with his speed gun during the summer months.
If you can make it this far the road from Scourie to Ullapool (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=scourie&daddr=Ullapool&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=56.701961,-5.115166&sspn=0.049382,0.154324&ie=UTF8&ll=58.186633,-4.638977&spn=0.758694,2.469177&z=9) is quite possibly one of the finest roadways in the country. It's a proper rollercoaster ride taking you from sea level to hundreds of feet in the air. You get it all, from pine forests, cliff tops, sea lochs - thats if you can tear your eyes away from the road! Here's a pic of my Tig and a mate's CB1300 just outside Kylestrome as the road sweeps down to sea level just after rounding a cliff.
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs211.snc1/7817_143300692778_745687778_2731485_2955611_n.jpg)
If not though (and I appreciate you may have other things going on), be sure to have a wee go on this road (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=North+Ballachulish,+Fort+William&daddr=56.699794,-5.085468+to:Glencoe,+Ballachulish&hl=en&geocode=FZwYYQMdnfGw_ylD7_osQjaJSDEwVbw2np4eaA%3B%3BFTboYAMdTCWy_yl1syl76jCJSDHnMhfC8-Dc0Q&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=13&via=1&sll=56.685937,-5.142288&sspn=0.049403,0.154324&ie=UTF8&ll=56.701961,-5.115166&spn=0.049382,0.154324&z=13). Doesn't really take you anywhere, but it is affectionately known as the 'Scotsburgring' by those in the know, which should say a lot. It's an amazing wee piece of tarmac with loads of twists, bumps, turns and generally quite good surfacing. And the major bonus is that because it pretty much goes nowhere, from nowhere, you rarely see a caravan/mobile home on it (which in the summer in Scotland is quite a feet!)
I feel like I should be getting commission from the tourist board for Scotland here...
Thanks for the link Stu, have saved it for future reference :thumbsup
Quote from: "Mustang"a compression test will tell the story
Cheers for all the help thus far - will give the idle thing a go then if that's not the cause will be going out tomorrow to try and source a 12mm bit for my compression tester. Seriously hope it ain't anything more sinister than a wee bit of idling adjustment now although the more I find out the more I think it may be...
Ach well, I'll get there eventually, even if it does mean I get no riding done during the summer!
Could it be the coils breaking down under load or when getting hot?
Had this problem on an old YZF750 i rebuilt.
It would idle and run fine until it got hot.
:headbang
except he said the plug comes out of that #2 as a virgin with no soot and has a spark when checking ...........I say no fuel going to or thru #2 carb
oh yeah he swapped coils around too and made no difference .
Quote from: "Mustang"the plug comes out of that #2 as a virgin with no soot and has a spark when checking & he swapped coils around too and made no difference .
this much is true.
Am off to the hospital to get my cast off today so will be doing a wee bit of work on it when I get back so I'll no doubt keep y'all posted
Okay Okay, so got my cast off today and am now hobbling around without the aid of crutches, which is good news! However I still haven't got the full range of flexion/extention in my foot back yet enough to shift gears on my bike (well I could on my Enfield as its a Right Hand shift, but that would need an MOT first). I am taking this as a positive though - no excuse not to sort the Tig in the coming weeks now!
So anyways, got out with my compression tester today and on an admittedly cold engine recorded pressures of Cy1 - 150psi, Cy2 - 160psi and Cy3 - 160psi. Now I know this is cold, but the problem is there from cold so I can use these as a gauge and as such there is nowt wrong with Cy2's compression - so back to fuel again.
Now that I have the rocker cover off though I thought now is as good a time as any to pull the intake cam and do some re-shiming. So after much cursing and swearing I fashioned a makeshit shim puller out of the magnet of a tankbag and boy did that help! Typically though when I pulled the shims for Cy1 and Cy2 intakes, only one of them had a number stamped on it, so off to the hardware store to buy a micrometer I went...upshot being I have 3 shims at 2.7 and 1 at 2.6. Will prob not bother to touch the shims in Cy1 (can't see any point changing what is an acceptable limit to one too high one just for the sake of a few more miles before I need to do one again), but from Mustang's link above it's 25mm ones I'm looking for? Bike shop should have them right? What about the gaskets for crank-case and cam chain tensioner, I've got a tube of 'Instant Gasket' or do I have to use the preformed ones (my worry is their availability - ie can't find any)?
Anyway, that's tomorrow's job...Then it's on with the casings and back to the carbs...
Cheers again guys, I think I'd have sold the giT, sorry Tig by now if it wasn't for here.
Unless your valve cover gasket is hosed, reuse it. Sealant around the corners and where the bores are for the cam bearings (edge of head left and right).
Cam chain tensioner takes a soft washer for a gasket. Re-use it as long as it's in good shape as well.
Edit: Sorry, there is a gasket on the tensioner body. Same as above. If it looks good, reuse it.
aye, the valve cover one looks fine, as does the tensioner one so I can just reuse them then.
I mullered the crank-case one getting it off though (as in had to scrape parts off it was that bad!), so would the insant gasket stuff suffice for that?
should work fine .............the original is just a paper gasket anyway .
There are umpteen makes of "Instant Gasket" in the UK, some are better than others. I would get ahold of some "Blue Hylomar" (http://www.hylomar.co.uk/) and use that where needed, it's recommended for anywhere that might get in contact with engine oil. Most decent motor factors will stock it.
I have even used it on its own in place of an original paper gasket a few times.
+1 on the Blue Hylomar. Developed by Rolls-Royce for use in their early model turbojet engines!
+1 on the blue Hylomar here also.
Even fixed a tiny tank leak with it (sweating gas from the RHS middle fairing bush) and sealing my new petcock in place.
Right, hopefully nearly out of the woods...just got the valves sorted - bought a couple of new shims and swapped a few around so now all my intakes are 0.13-0.15mm. Cushty.
Pieced the whole thing back up again, and i dunno if I'm just convincing myself here, but it sounded a bit smoother when started was thumbed...still something there mind you but I can't have done it any harm. Again, cushty.
Did the increased idle thing and it didn't really make a difference to the misfire, still one there but when I pulled the plugs again it appears that may have caused the misfire to jump from cy2-cy3, although I'm not 100% on this as I don't think I put all the plugs back in exactly the same slots (will get some a fresh one tomorrow and give it a go again), but it looked as if there could be blackening of plug 2 this time...Hooked up my newly bought 'carbtune' though and they were all out of sync with each other so I'll be syncing tomorrow (I work fairly late and have a few young families around me so don't like to fire the bike up after 9ish out of courtesy which is why it takes me so long!).
I'm afraid that I like to try and understand problems before I try and sort it, so am just trying to work out whether there is a possibility that adjusting the idle screw brought carb2 into the correct firing range but that it also pushed carb3 out of it? Does that sound about right?
if turning the idle adjuster up made #2 fire then #3 should have gone way up and made the engine race as the adjuster is connected to the linkage that runs all three carbs
I am not ruling out coils at this point in time either ..........but first get the carbs synced to one another
check the header pipes when it's running if they are all hot then you are firing on all 3 if you got a cold one thats the dead cylinder
Quote from: "Mustang"if turning the idle adjuster up made #2 fire then #3 should have gone way up and made the engine race as the adjuster is connected to the linkage that runs all three carbs
In retrospect I may have jumped the gun slightly there - the most realistic thing that happened is that a plug from a firing cylinder ended up in cy2 and I forgot to give it the wire brush treatment beforehand...I think I just got overexcited at a possible end to the situation!
still not convinced it's coming out wet (googled 'wet spark plug' and it looks nothing like them) but is there doesn't look like any way it could not be getting fuel to just the middle carb. In my manual the mikuni in the pic has 2 fuel lines feeding into the bar on the carb but mine only has the one between carbs 2 and 3 so I wouldn't have thought there would be anything else that would be causing a blockage.
oh yeah and cheers for your patience!
I'm only an enthusiastic amateur with the tinkering but I am willing to listen and learn.
when you have the petcock turned on and motor off ....open up the drain screw on the bottom of carb #2 and see if gas comes out .
have you had the mikunis out of the bike and opened em up to see if they are gunked up and or worn parts inside ?
you could have a stuck float assembly that is not letting the needle valve open to let fuel in to the float bowl ..........
I don't see the need to turn the fuel petcock on until you know that no fuel is getting to #2. Then try on, if still none, try reserve. You could learn a lot from that little exercise.
Nup.
Carbs sync'd, fuel delivery on all 3 carbs, compression still okay and still misfire. Now it appears more intermittent though, as in sounds like it could be almost idling fine with just the odd crap-out, then the engine melts down on a quickly opened throttle. A touch (or hover - I'm not a total idiot!) test of the downpipes confirm that they're all hot...
So coils again then?
Suppose if that's the case I gotta expect (and therefore replace) all 3?
Honestly at this stage if I had just a wee bit more money (or would accept my R100RS as a trade-in) I'd be taking a wee trip to the dealers down the road replacing the bugger right now with that nice R1150GS they have in showroom...the weather is getting too nice to be spending it tinkering!
is the cap on the right hand snorkel on the air box ? cuz if it isn't it needs to be !
The tiger should only have 1 snorkel open or it will run just like you are describing .........
Quote from: "Mustang"is the cap on the right hand snorkel on the air box ? cuz if it isn't it needs to be !
:oops: :roll:
erm, nope...that whole bit beside the battery bit didn't go back on after I'd had the carbs off this time, just incase they had to come off again...would have thought that it wouldn't mattered that much though being the other side of the filter but will re-fit it tomorrow before testing again.
If it works it'll be a bit of a d'oh moment (although not quite as much as the good ol' kill switch trick!)
Right, okay so the snorkel thing didn't work. Basically to help stop any confusion about how/what the misfire is like I have made a wee video trying to explain the thing;
Steamer Misfire Video to be found here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6qkBH6piwc)
Sorry about the camera angles and also the 30s of dead footage in the middle, but I couldn't be arsed editing it all down!
The bike will run, but will die when either opening throttle quickly or when it gets too high in the rev range (as shown on the video - watch my throttle hand towards the end).
My thinking now is it's either coils or possibly leaking airbox - didn't think about this one before, but the previous owner switched the stocker to a K&N numer and I damaged a wee bit of the airbox in the process. I did my best to sort it all with silicone sealer, but this could be the problem?
Anyway see what you think.
it's got the symptoms of the main jets not being big enuff
quick throttle ..bogs down.....shut throttle some speed picks up = main jet too small
won't run good past 5k = too much air getting in and not enuff fuel , needs bigger main jets
k&n filter = more air ........probably needs bigger mains
and the real test will be to road test it ............sitting static in the garage won't help much need to see what it does under load
triumph three cylinder bikes are very fussy about what you do to the air box
is the steel perforated plate still in the box covering the center of the air filter ....it needs to be there .
you may want to get a new stock filter assembly from triumph (just the filter box not the snorkels)
ps . the video didn't help much for diagnosing purposes
and you will never get a perfect idle out of it , thats the nature of the beast , also they are velocity slides in the carbs so they take a sec for vacuum to pull them up they will never be as responsive as a carb that the slide lifts with throttle cable.
Right, well I'm gona agree with you there about the lean running thing - mainly because the airbox was in a bit of a mess when I opened it, but as I said K&N was on by last owner and it ran fine on the same jetting (admittedly this was stock jetting so wasn't prob doing it much good). Perhaps a combination of cleaning it of debris and possible leaks in airbox are contributing.
I'll whack in a new stock airbox and see how things are. I take your comment on the idle thing, I don't expect a smooth idle but this thing pops every now and again whilst idling which surely isn't normal.
A road test is out for the time being unfortunately, it needs an MOT before I can legally do that. Don't think they can fail you for an misfire but it sure doesn't fill me with confidence riding the thing to the dealers in this state!
But aye, if it were coils failing under load what you are saying that wouldn't really show in a garage environment but on the road instead?
what are you setting the idle speed at ?
1200-1400 rpm works pretty good and an occasional hiccup in the idle is not that big of a deal the road test is what you need to confirm how it's running
getting too much air is going to prevent it from being able to take any throttle past 5000 rpm .
I think we may be on to a winner here;
Went to the garage again and dismantled the airbox on it right now, filled every crack and screw hole with silicone sealer (and there were a few blanking plugs missing too so they got filled), put the thing back together and whacked it back on the bike.
Dropped a fresh set of spark plugs in and bolted together rudimentry bodywork (i.e. a couple of tank bolts and put the seat back on) and took her for a wee spin around the block, private roads of course...for a mile or two's worth just checking out the pull through the range.
As you well know it's a lot easier to tell how a bike is running by using that most unique of diagnostic tester - your arse. Basically it's running a lot better with the sealant in place. Running perfectly up to about 2.5-3k (which I can assume is pilot jet) then it starts to get a bit more patchy after that. The most important thing I feel is that quick openings of the throttle now just result in stumbling rather than the engine giving up completely.
Pulled the plugs on returning to the garage and this was the result. Now bearing in mind these were fresh plugs when they went in 2 miles before this pic was taken I think I would say that they are denoting an engine running on the bad side of lean, would you agree?
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/4569008148_e1b53b5bed.jpg) (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3109/4569007978_a9591e6697.jpg)
can't tell much from the pic of the plugs and to get a true reading you need to kill the engine at 4k and coast to side of road and pull the plugs , not easy on tiger .
your bike should have mikunis on it and if everything is stock they should have 105's in it for main jets and be running pretty sweet
not being there to see what is happening makes it hard to diagnose
but if that bike was running anywhere near right the plugs should be a choclate tan color on the ceramic even black soot would be better than grey or white
if it stumbles hard on a quick throttle pull while riding it and then if you close the throttle back some and it recovers and actually starts to pick up rpm your mains are too small and i would increase them to 110's if they have 105's in there also set the pilot air screws at 2 turns and those mikunis should have the needles set in the middle notch .
Okay, just to give a wee update/summation on this thread;
Mustang, although it may be hard to see, those plugs were really white/grey so I knew at once that it was too lean (jetting was all spot on for stock) and since a new stock airbox and the original jetting is less likely to cause a farse-up than non standard stuff that's the way I went. Fired everything back together and bang - running sweetly once again. After a wee pre MOT shakedown I found that there was a problem with the bike dying if holding high revs/open throttle for too long, like the bike was running out of fuel - which after a wee bit of searching turned out to be the case. I removed the nylon socks as per others on this board and fitted an inline filter and that went away.
Took the old girl for her MOT and passed, so went off that day for a wee 250mile odd jaunt to go sign some papers to sell my old flat (not a good day for it mind you - encountered snow on 3 separate occasions...In MAY!). When I got to my destination and took out my earplugs I noticed that dreaded 'rattlecan' sound coming from the engine - definitely sounded like something that wasn't there before, but I was far from home, no choice but to stick in the earplugs and ride back.
Parked the bike and went straight to bed, but got around to pulling the alternator at the weekend there and, you've guessed it...
Great buggery-fuck! This bike is more temperamental than my Enfield! It's a clutch side break as well, so I'll be reading through the topics linked at the top of the page, but no doubt I'll be needing a wee bit of help with that too...
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3329/4639753629_e4bac748cb.jpg)
Cheers again,
Stu
Looks like the previous owner/s got lucky. Now you are finding all the usual suspects, should be well sorted soon, just a couple more to go.
Does it ever stop snowing up there, Cockbridge - Tomintool road still closed then :wink: