Hey to all - newbie in the house!
Okay - so I'm looking at buying a Steamer. Guy has an '98 that has some issues. Here's the story -
Riding along, all the sudden smoke from the crankcase breather. Evidently lots of smoke. Takes it home and does a compression test thinking broke ring. #1 tested to 75, the other two tested fine. No leakdown noted.
Seller says he has taken good care of the bike - second owner, good maintenance record. Says the bike ran fine before the smoke.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated...including RUN AWAY! :lol:
Lots of smoke out the breather would certainly scare me away, unless the price is a bargain anyway. It does sound like a broken ring.
The others will be along in a few hours.
Could be a few things, clutch, gearbox. Unusual though.
Don't ask me, I'm a sucker for limping puppies :roll:
Quote from: "pKp"Takes it home and does a compression test thinking broke ring. #1 tested to 75, the other two tested fine. No leakdown noted.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated...including RUN AWAY! :lol:
the compression test is the dead giveaway that it will need motor work
probably pistons and rings and new liners is the cure and will involve about a thousand bucks
IF YOU DO IT YOURSELF second mortgage on the house if a dealer does it .
could be a valve but I would suspect the above scenario
you wont know until it is torn down and inspected
you could try checking the oil and see if it is full of gas like maybe possibly a float stuck and flooded the crankcase with gas ...........that would produce smoke
but the low compression on #1 would make me
RUN AWAY unless he's giving it away for free or damn close to it
sounds like a parts donor bike. Buy it for buttons and sell the parts to members on this site for a profit!
Are you a gambling man? Sure does sound like a broken ring but it also wouldn't be the first time somebody overfilled with oil. Take a sly check and see if you can see any oil weeping about the clutch cover and round the airbox. You never know, you might stike gold.
Hey - thanks for all the ideas. I suspect rings on #1 as well.
But, through all my searching I could not find a single reference to rings breaking on a Steamer. And, the bike only has 18,000 miles - according to the owner.
My second though was the mysterious "laid the bike on its side and oil rushed through the breather and into the valves" story. Anyone have any thoughts on that theory?
Plus, there is at least one posting for "the valves were way out of adjustment causing a low compression reading."
Seller wants $1,900 for the bike...I'm thinking $1,000 max.
Quote from: "Sin_Tiger"Don't ask me, I'm a sucker for limping puppies :roll:
Hmmm you too, that makes two of us :roll:
Okay - got the Steamer! Thought I'd throw up a picture or two - very proud owner. Honestly this thing looks better in person than in the pics.
Into the motor now to find the source of the crankcase smoke. Still suspecting rings on #1. Checked valves and most were in spec - only 2 out .05 - 4 out .025. Not sure what shims are in there yet - hoping for 2.8 or better.
Getting ready to pull the head tonight - will do a compression check (again) before I proceed. Any thoughts on cam removal? Head removal? Seems pretty straightforward.
...scalpel...
(http://www.prmatrix.com/tiger/Steamer-1.jpg)
look forward to those pics
Where are you? US, other side of pond orrr???
Good luck :) the head removal is pretty straight forward. Keep us posted and lots of pics please.
Its when the broken rings are in the crankcase that life gets interesting :D
Quote from: "pKp"Okay - got the Steamer! Thought I'd throw up a picture or two - very proud owner. Honestly this thing looks better in person than in the pics.
Into the motor now to find the source of the crankcase smoke. Still suspecting rings on #1. Checked valves and most were in spec - only 2 out .05 - 4 out .025. Not sure what shims are in there yet - hoping for 2.8 or better.
Getting ready to pull the head tonight - will do a compression check (again) before I proceed. Any thoughts on cam removal? Head removal? Seems pretty straightforward.
...scalpel...
(http://www.prmatrix.com/tiger/Steamer-1.jpg)
Nice looker looks better than mine, you pay the 2K?
Let us know how it comes along.
Found the problem. TWO broken rings on #1. Here are a few pics of the operation:
First - just a glam shot to show off my clean head - PO must have used synthetic and changed regularly. Can eat off the valve shims! Made my head bolts stand at attention for this shot...
(http://www.prmatrix.com/tiger/Attention.jpg)
Now to the dirty work - #1 looked good at first, but then a peek at the back-side revealed the damage:
(http://www.prmatrix.com/tiger/Piston-2.jpg)
Problem well in hand:
(http://www.prmatrix.com/tiger/BrokenBits.jpg)
Damage done:
(http://www.prmatrix.com/tiger/Piston-1.jpg)
The best news is the sleeve for #1 looks great - no damage! Very lucky...
Now checking #2 and #3 for signs of ring fatigue. I suspect I will go ahead and replace the rings on all three for peace of mind.
Nurse...ready to close...
that looks like broken piston to me ............not rings
for 450 bucks you can have three new pistons and rings with wrist pins
Holy cow! You are right! Haven't looked at rings for a while...
Okay - so it's a new piston. Hold the rings...
Any idea what would cause that kind of carnage? I suspect #1 was running very lean. The other two spark plugs looked fine - #1 was totally white.
(http://prmatrix.com/tiger/Spark-1.jpg)
Have you pulled the oil filter and drained the sump yet? I can't believe there is no metal in the oil after an event like this. It's really easy to cut the filter element off the spool, let it drain into a rag for an hour or so, then check between the pleats for shiny things.
What caused the piston to break right there? Could be a casting defect, but not really sure based on your photo.
I suspect abuse as the culprit that broke the piston ....hard to tell from a photo
the plug color means nothing until you have a good piston and rings in the #1 hole
he may have had that advance set too high like 5 degrees and running cheap gas and got some detonation going on would be my best guess as to why the piston failed
if you are going back stock pipes and timing advance with stock air box just use 98-105 for main jet sizes with the right hand snorkel covered
although 98 is too small a main even though that was stock on keihin carbs
102's or 105's and you will be golden
shim the needles up approx .030 of inch with a flat washer will take out the mid range bog from 4k to 5k and set the pilot screws at 1 3/4 to 2 1/4 turns out , whatever works best for your bike
it will run fine
don't forget the hylomar for the cylinder liners or you will have a coolant leak into the crankcase
Forgot about the aftermarket timing advance plate. However, I'd expect to see some melting of the piston dome and probably some scuffing of the piston skirt areas if detonation was actually happening.
Are there yellow deposits along the top of the piston, or just normal colored soot?
I suspect there may have been metal in the oil - a few spots of yellow-colored bubbles rose to the top of the catch basin. Not immediately, but after sitting a few hours waiting to be dumped. The filter looked new - I'll check again for metal specks. The top of #1 looked fine - I really had to probe to find where it was broken. Actually the split in the oil ring led me to the cracks.
At any rate, removing #2 and #3 tonight - ran out of parts baggies! Will post the results.
Also, what is the recommended re-conditioning for the sleeve. It looks fine, no scratches other than the x-hashes that I believe are supposed to be there. Should I take them to a machine shop for inspection? They seem pretty tough.
mic the bores for size .use a dial bore gauge and if # 1 matches the size of number 3 than I would just give it a light honing and reassemble
#2 should be a bigger size than #1 and #3
they should all be straight (no taper) and round
per the Triumph Service Manual:
the bore should be 76.03 mm-76.05 mm with 76.1mm being the service limit
liners should be checked at top ,middle and bottom of bore
I haven't time to do the search right now but I distinctly remember reading a post about the back of pistons failing between the rings. If it wasn't on here it was on RAT, and I think EB made some contribution. If I get a chance I'll do some digging later.
Hey - maybe I should contact Triumph - get some free pistons? Bike has only 18,000 miles - but with the mods I'd probably be wasting my time.
:D nothing wrong with living in hope, it staves off despair.
Quote from: "pKp"Hey - maybe I should contact Triumph - get some free pistons? Bike has only 18,000 miles - but with the mods I'd probably be wasting my time.
you would be wasting your time ..it's 12 years old !!
Quick update - #3 was blown as well - looked just like #1.
#2 seems fine - looks new. Might be new...maybe the PO had to change it out before me.
I read a post over at RAT that talked about cast pistons vs forged pistons - seems the cast ones can not take any sort of timing advance without failing at the ring land. Others have had the same issue as me with different bikes.
...two pistons and hold the mayo...!
not quite .................I've got 65 thousand miles on a set of pistons just like yours with 4 degrees of advance . It has been set up that way since mile 3000.
I think previous owner got greedy for power had advance set at 5 degrees and was running low octane gas with main jets that were not big enough for the pipe andd advance changes ...........
The verdict is in -
112 main jets
38 pilot jets
3 turns
no shims (N3RF)
Yoshi cans
4 degrees advance
Throw in some regular gas and you get broken pistons on #1 and #3
This is exactly why I don't meddle with timing. I understand what I'm doing with fuel maps and know that providing I don't lean it out beyond 14 to 1 (stoichiometric is roughly 14.7 to 1) it might run rough, but I'm not going to do any lasting harm. I've never read up on timing changes and the possible effects, so I don't go there.
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"I've never read up on timing changes and the possible effects, so I don't go there.
it's all about horsepower and throttle response if you do it right :D
I am totaly dumb to this stuff, just waiting on Rubber, Chain and sprokets then Ride!! :?
But please do explain!! :)
Here's an example of why I won't touch ign timing in the Girly ECM map until I'm sure I know what I'm doing:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/ign.jpg)
This is ign advance plotted against rpm and throttle position, taken from Tuneboy on a standard Girly map.
Edit. I've just had a quick look at most of the Tuneboy tunes for the Girly. It seems no-one touches the ign map as they are all the same.
BTW, Tuneboy does have a failsafe built in where it hard limits the maximum advance that can be achieved; nevertheless, I need to do some reading first.
oohh I am so glad you ended up with this My wife was Livid, I was on the verge of buying it and you beat me to it by less than 24 hours. :D
Got a good deal in my opinion but if you ever get tired of messing with it let me know, :twisted: See if I can get the wife all wound up again.