First timer doing my own valve adjustment and shim replacement. Here are my measurements:
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TNYu47S7nzI/AAAAAAAAAfQ/LVr922RJDoU/s640/IMG_20101106_170107.jpg)
I started out with Mustang's excellent Shim tool, but I soon stopped since I don't feel like I'm using it correctly. I feel like I'm using too much force to get the edge of the bucket down. It's it supposed to be hard? Are the springs that stiff? I had the edge pop off a couple of times (makes a loud *pop*). Am I damaging the valve / valve-seat when I do this? It seems a little scary to me using this tool since the legs are not pointing the same angle as the valve: seems the valve is pointing 7-8 degrees away from the direction of the shim tool leg, making the leg push against the shim itself.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TNYhEBnAugI/AAAAAAAAAd0/zxyffaaRmow/s912/IMG_20101106_171736.jpg)
Any advice would be appreciated!
you are not supposed to screw the leg down on the buckets but rather use the cam to hold the buckets down and then set the tool to just touch the buckets then rotate the engine backwards letting the cam lobes come off the shims and the tool now holds the bucket down . This is the way the tool works .to remove rotate the engine so the cam lobes push the bucket down away from the tool finger and then remove the finger from the tool plate .
any questions feel free to call
Wow, my eyes skipped over step 2 (where this is clearly expressed) in the instructions and went right to 3.
Thanks Mustang.
you are welcome and as far as the valve snapping shut on you ..........I wouldn't do it repeatedly , but I'd be lyin' if I said ,"it's never happened to me ". :oops:
Awesome, thanks again, man.
What do you think of my measurements? (did I just say what I thought I just said?) ... erm, with regard to the intakes: they are almost all sitting at the bottom of the scale.
I would leave the intakes alone as they are all still in spec albeit on the low side for a couple of them
would shim those two exhausts though that are at .135 mm
use the chart to get the correct size replacement shim
What about the exhaust at .203? Leaver?
Can I find the charts for the shims in my Haynes Manual? I was going to remove the shim, measure it and look for a replacement size that works for me ... somewhere ... starting with the parts interchange thread.
Thanks Mustang.
the exhaust at .203 is fine
there is a chart in the valve tool directions
anything that uses 25mm diameter shims
honda 750's come to mind as well as a bunch of kawasakis and even some toyota cars use 25 mm diameter shims
Quote from: "Mustang"the exhaust at .203 is fine
there is a chart in the valve tool directions
anything that uses 25mm diameter shims
honda 750's come to mind as well as a bunch of kawasakis and even some toyota cars use 25 mm diameter shims
Cool, thanks!
I'm about to start this task. I'm currently exchanging the Air Box Filter, and have the carbs' and coils removed.
My question to the wise ones is:
- Should I continue with the coils and carbs' removed to get the valve cover removed?
or
- can I reinstall the carbs, coils and air filter before starting the shim job?
(I suppose with the carbs' still removed you wont have the cables hanging over!?)
Status so far:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4049/5154453639_258aa0667a_z.jpg)
Cheers.
You do not need to have the carbs / airbox removed to do the valve adjustment. You should remove the right side coil (#3), though, as the cover comes off easier when that coil is out of the way.
As you can see, I even forgot to remove the spark plugs before I got the valve cover off. Not recommended.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TNXwlDG0JDI/AAAAAAAAAfY/5G493FggGxk/s640/IMG_20101106_155759.jpg)
Having a bit of trouble with the #3 exaust shim. Got #1 just fine. It's a 2.75 so I will order a 2.7. I put it back because I don't know if it's good for the spring to leave it compressed that long. So I moved onto the other shim on #3.
But #3 is in a place I just can't see from either side of the bike. It's the inside exhaust valve shim. Is there some secret skill on this one? I'm considering removing the radiator to get at it.[/img]
patience and practice :D
I was afraid you were going to say that. :roll:
To my defense I didn't have a dental pick or a magnet to the get the #1 off. I used a bent nail. Tonight I bought a couple of dental picks and an assortment of flat magnets. We'll see how it goes.
I tried getting it out with a dental pick. The pick was too thin and just bent like crazy so I went with a sharpened, bent finishing nail. This and a magnet did the trick. Also rotating the bucket to where the dimple was on the inside of the head, where I could get at it, was the last hurdle.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TNjkX7PibUI/AAAAAAAAAfg/Qu_Y9rUoCZo/s800/IMG_20101108_224600.jpg)[/i]
Quote from: "Colonel Nikolai"I went with a sharpened, bent finishing nail. This and a magnet did the trick. Also rotating the bucket to where the dimple was on the inside of the head, where I could get at it, was the last hurdle.
Thanks for the insider tip! I'll be at that stage tonight... :)
LATE last night I was able to pull the cover off and take the readings:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/5160249251_44505b2cd2_z.jpg)
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1204/5160767464_b8185aa0cf_z.jpg)
I believe that only the three Intake shims should be replaced...
So I'll be using a nail and magnet tonight to measure those shims :lol:
That was nice worksheet, is it by any chance downloadable?
Hi harre,
I believe Mustang has a version also. But here is the one I created at work yesterday :lol: (I was bored...)
It's in the European size A4 too :wink:
Thanks, will come in handy.
Nice worksheet!
If your intakes are the problem, I wouldn't rotate the bucket dimple to the inside like I did because that won't help you. I had 2 exhaust valves out of spec and the radiator is in the way there.
Seems like it's unusual that I'm having to change exhaust valves, instead of intakes. I keep hearing that it's the intakes that are usually getting tighter. But the bike here is a 96 Triumph Sprint, not a Steamer. I'm going to do the steamer next.
Quote from: "Colonel Nikolai"Nice worksheet!
If your intakes are the problem, I wouldn't rotate the bucket dimple to the inside like I did because that won't help you. I had 2 exhaust valves out of spec and the radiator is in the way there.
:hello2 Valve clearances have now been done....
:friday
BIG Thanks to you Nikolai for the 'Nail' tip.
And a SPECIAL thanks to Mustang for the excellent Shim Removal Tool.
:notworthy
So - here's my findings and the corrections I made if anyone's interested:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4127/5163972236_0788c9a786_z.jpg)
Yes - it is a new Worksheet. I found that I needed an area where I could write down the second readings after installing the replacement shim.
:roll:
I've included this version below for those that would like it.
Feel free to use.
Wow, that was fast! Good work!
So the nail helped you? I'll say don't make the nail tip too sharp: it could break off while pulling the shim out.
I'm waiting for shims to come in the mail.
I'm kinda weirded out that I'm the only guy with exhaust valves that are out of spec.
Quote from: "Colonel Nikolai"I'm kinda weirded out that I'm the only guy with exhaust valves that are out of spec.
0
would it make you feel any better if I said I have only had to shim exhaust valves on the 95 tiger of mine once in 55,ooo miles and they were two exhaust valves ?
Thanks for the new worksheet!
I've had to reshim exhaust valves more than once. :wink:
Just lucky, I guess. :roll:
Makes me feel a little better. This bike - a 96 Sprint - has 45k on it right now. Maybe this is the time for it?
Well - fitted all parts back together yesterday and start the Tiger up. All sounded good!
After a short while (I let the oil circulate a minute or two) I twisted the throttle slightly.....
The RPM's sticked!! :shock:
Strange - as the throttle grip twists freely and springs back OK - No problem there.
BUT - the RPM's stay open and ever-so-slowly come back down... :?:
Obviously it's a mechanical problem.... So before I start stripping all back down to get to the carbs - does anyone have any tips / advice / hints I should look at.
Thanks in advance.
Throttle cable? It's really easy to hork the cable ( pinch or kink ) when you remove the carbs / airbox.
NO offence Col Nick, but if it springs back ok it sounds like the linkage is working as it should as there's no spring in the twist grip.
Edit, just deleted the rest of this post, I'd gone into Girly mode (IACVs etc) :oops:
make sure there is some free play in the cable at the twist grip end there is an adjuster there at the twist grip
make sure the cable is setting into the ferrule at the carbs properly
sync the carbs
adust the idle screw
if the rpms hang high at like 2500 rpm and then slowly settle back down to 1500 by itself . If it is you may want to turn the idle mixture screws in 1/2 turn to a turn
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"NO offence Col Nick
none taken: you know more than I do!
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TN8MXS3w5lI/AAAAAAAAAfs/1-Q9nE3Jisc/s400/IMG_20101113_160620.jpg)
I was hand tightening this bolt and after 3.5 turns it was a little sticky. Tried backing it out and backing it in a few times. Tried a few different bolts in this spot. Still a little sticky. Eased it a bit with an Allen just to see if this was a little hangup and BOOM. Blew it.
What can I do now? It's the bolt over the #2 cylinder intake.
Heli-Coil.
Quote from: "JetdocX"Heli-Coil.
Thank God. I was worried this meant "source a new valve head". I feel really stupid for doing this but MAN I was hardly using any force at all
When I look at the picture again it looks like I just overtightened it. But the head didn't look very sunk and I was not using much force at all. *sigh*
After doing some research, I'm thinking of working with a machine shop to do the helicoil work. With the the engine at an angle and all it seems very easy to get the drilling angle wrong which would put me where I was when I started.
I've also read that fine threaded helicoils in aluminium are very problematic since there just isn't enough material to hold onto. This implies a different bolt, which might also have to be custom machined.
Some folks on the pro drag racing circuit say they will cut helicoils into brand new heads just so they don't run into the problems I just did since the helicoils are stronger than the originals.
Any thoughts?
I made many many aircraft modification kits of various types in aluminium in the 1980s and we ALWAYS installed helicoils as part of the manufacturing process - the raw aluminium is simply not up to repeated use - so I'm not surprised that the drag race guys do the same. I guess the automotive industry don't due to cost and that the odd failure doesn't usually end in a smoking hole in the ground.
In this case I would definitely use a (good) machine shop - but be sure they do this sort of stuff all the time rather than let them experiment on your head. Ask them what they plan to do and how. If they're any good they'll be only to happy to explain it to you. If they're vague, walk away.
I've not heard of troubles with fine thread helicoils; that's not to say they don't exist, but I suspect the probs are largely of their complainant's own making. Helicoil designers wouldn't produce a product that was flawed from the outset if used properly.
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"In this case I would definitely use a (good) machine shop - but be sure they do this sort of stuff all the time rather than let them experiment on your head. Ask them what they plan to do and how. If they're any good they'll be only to happy to explain it to you. If they're vague, walk away.
Good points. Curve-ball for you: rented a mechanic's bay in a machine shop this month so I could access their tools and environment and I suppose expertise. And I bought the right size helicoil too, tonight. So I'm thinking of starting there. The guy in the bay next to me said he'd done a good deal of them in steel but never aluminum. So now I'm wondering...
Quote from: "Mustang"make sure there is some free play in the cable at the twist grip end there is an adjuster there at the twist grip...
:?
Yeah - there was NO free play - even with the adjuster fully twisted in.
So I pulled the carbs again and saw that the piston in the carb on Cyl.#1 was 5 mm higher than the other two! It wasn't seating down correctly.
So I dismantled the carb cover and found a perforated O ring on the vacuum seal and the fact the the teflon washer was not seating correctly on the needle head. So I made the corrections and could fix the piston to seat down fully.
Reinstalled and....
Quote from: "Mustang"make sure the cable is setting into the ferrule at the carbs properly ...
:oops: Yup - noticed this was my hic-up!
That 90 degree cable tubing was not sitting down in it's ferrule!!!
Something soooo small and on the surface!?!
It really goes to show that it could make sense - from time to time - to simply take a step back, mug of tea with some biscuits and view things over...
All is working well now!
@ Col:
Ooooh - sorry to hear you have other 'issues'! Hope it gets fixed easily.
Cheers all,
Birdy
btw - pre-ordered the 800XC - will be available around March-April next year!
Still keeping my Steamer though - it shares the same Birth Year as my son :lol:
It's hard to call CN, if access to the damaged hole is good then you should be ok. I'm not familar with where it is.
"The chances of it going wrong is equal to the square of the difficulty divided by the inverse of the operator's experience" or something like that....
The key is to not dive straight in. Get a lump of aluminium (it can be any old casing casting etc as long as it's got some depth) and practice until you are sure you have it cracked. 10 or 20 wasted helicoils are still cheaper than a scrap head. Duplicate what you are up against as best you can so drill a hole the root dia of the original thread, if you can tap that size you can do that, then drill with the oversize helicoil drill then tap with the helicoil tap. Lastly, fit the helicoil. Practice until you've got it.
Lubricate the drills and taps with a drop of paraffin; paraffin is a good lube for aluminium. I think you call that kerosene...
Oh, and if I was really worried about doing a difficult fix, I'd opt for using a hand drill if I could get in with it. You have much more control over what's happening - even with the revs wound down on a battery drill, things can go wrong pretty rapidly :shock:
When it comes to the tapping, if it's difficult to get the tap wrench aligned properly so the tap goes in square to the hole try making up something like this:
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c273/BixxerBob/bar.jpg)
You can support the tap in alignment with the hole using the drilled bar while turning the tap with a vice wrench or similar. Again practice first till you'er happy. Good luck!!
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"It's hard to call CN, if access to the damaged hole is good then you should be ok. I'm not familar with where it is.
it's in the cam caps , thats where the bolt holes for the valve cover are .
be very careful cuz if you screw up you will need a new cam cap/bearing which are only available with an entire cyl. head. they are the bearing surface for the cam, and are line bored with the head at time of manufacture of the head .
a heli coil should be fine as the valve cover bolts are only torqued to 7nm
the thread size for the valve cover bolt is M6x1.0 mm
a word of caution though when you do it .............remove the cam cap and repair it off the engine for two reasons
1. you won't accidentally drill into the camshaft , and
DO NOT drill all the way thru (remember it's a bearing cap)
2. you won't get any aluminum swarf into the engine by doing it on the bench
3. you will have much better success of repair done
off the bike
That helps!!
As I said, Im not familiar with where that bolt goes, I thought it was on the head somewhere.
Repair on the bench is much easier and safer!!!
Given the potential for things to go very wrong here, I would be tempted to glue a bit of studding into the remains of the threaded hole with JB weld or similar then make up a sleeve nut to go on top. It's only holding the cam cover on after all, and a little bit of silicone (stress the little) on the gasket should hold the oil in.
Personally I'd rather have a slight oil weep than run the risk of having to buy a new head.
But then I do try to find the easy way out.
Thanks you guys! Everyone! You are amazing. But I'm starting to go back on myself after reading all this and take it to a machine shop again.
I'll try with a piece of practice aluminum with a half dozen or so coils. If I find myself fumbling around after that, I will definitely abort the mission and try a machine shop. And yeah, I have to take the cam cap off, since it's #2 anyway. *sigh*. It's good to know that since if it was 1 or 3 I might have tried to do it in-situ. :shock:
I think I need a hug or something. I'm a scared, quivering little thing after this ordeal.
On a more positive note: I checked the valves on the steamer in the stable: all 12 within spec: intakes sitting low at .102 so I will keep an eye on 'er.
After checking the valves on my steamer, putting her all back together again. Ran her up to hot and let her cool down again. I see a little bit of weep on the right side (of the photo) gasket. I skipped using the recommended gasket sealer as Mustang does. Guess I'll have to opener up again and use that junk. :x
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TO1IienqDnI/AAAAAAAAAgk/WcDIPaB6fOk/s912/IMG_20101123_203726.jpg)
So did you do the helicoil yourself or did you pass it over? :)
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee47/2uoykcuf/emoticons/Bodyguard-Homer-resized-64.jpg)
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"So did you do the helicoil yourself or did you pass it over? :)
The helicoil work needs to get done on the 1996 Sprint, not the Tiger. I sent the cam cap to
Mustang to get redone. He's going to do one better than Helicoil: it'll be a steel thread insert.
I learned on the Sprint. The Tiger went smoothly: I actually ran into the same issue on the Tiger, but this time I was prepared. I didn't keep turning. I backed it out and reseated the cover (just gave it a little nudge with the heel of my hand) and it went right in the second time. The big difference: I knew how a cross-thread feels and I knew to back it out instead.
It's really easy to cross thread valve-cover bolts on these bikes! It can turn 3-4 times and hitch just a tiny bit and boom! You blew it! So easy does it and if you're not sure, don't keep going!
I received Mustang's repaired cam cap with the steel insert valve cover thread! Very sophisticated. :applause: thanks again Mustang!
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TPcCdpi4lvI/AAAAAAAAAhk/cB8d1HZXSVc/IMG_20101201_201737-1.jpg)
And now it's done! Ran it until the fans kicked in and shut her off. Looks good, no leaks, runs well.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bNWCp21GtiE/TPdCCX6-fUI/AAAAAAAAAh0/m_MsOShB91w/s512/IMG_20101202_000235.jpg)