Yesterday evening the Tigger came home :hello2 :hello2 ,
i had a quick squint to see that all was intact(it was dark)and to be fair
everything was there,my Touratech panniers still locked,the chair seat
locked and untampered with,all the bags and tent were there,my 5 liter
emergency petrol supply.......still there :shock: ,my two crates of
beer..............still there :party ,like i said it was dark and it was
pishing down,i have no power in the garage :( so i put her away for the
night,
this morning at first light i was down to see her,the rear brake was
dragging so i sorted that,i then tried to start her...but nothing,plenty of power in the batteries,the stater motor sounded like it was just spinning :!:
it wasnt like that when i left her,i tried a couple of times again but nothing,
so i pulled the cover off on the right hand side to see if there was any damage to the splines or any other part in there but its mint :?
but as i type this i cant remember hearing the fuel pump kick in at anytime :? Hmmm futher investigation required me thinks,
if anyone can think of where else to be looking then please chip in
cheers
Ok so some picking and poking done in my lunch hour,
checked all the fuses,checked the connection to the fuel pump
there is power going to the fuel pump but it's decided to give up... i think,
what else could it be???......anyone.
Can you get 12v to the pump, just see wether it runs?
Quote from: "John Stenhouse"Can you get 12v to the pump, just see wether it runs?
By that John do you mean 12v direct,would that be ok?,what i mean is it wont fry anything :?:
Quote from: "chairhead"... then tried to start her...but nothing,plenty of power in the batteries,the starter motor sounded like it was just spinning :!:
By "spinning" do you mean the engine was turning over, or the starter was spinning without turning the engine?
Hmmmm, :roll:
starter motor spins and i can hear the pistons going up and down,so im assuming the motor is turning over,there is no fuel pump kicking in,dont know if that makes sense :?:
Yep , makes sense. There was a guy on here a while ago called silver Tiger, he had a breakdown where the AA came out to him and diagnose no fuel pump, the patrolman ran a wire to the pump to get him home.
12V shouldn't fry anything, that's what the pump is designed to run with. No guarantees, but as friend always used to say to me, well what have you got to lose, it doesn't work at the moment, can you make it not work more?
The answer is yes, but I took his point, has been a very usefull adage over the years.
Quote from: "chairhead"there is power going to the fuel pump but it's decided to give up... i think,
what else could it be???......anyone.
Chairhead already has confirmed that the fuel pump is getting power.
Assuming that you are correct and it is getting power and iff you turn the key on and don't hear the pump cranking up to pressurize the system then its dead.
Time to check Ebay for a new fuel pump.
Quote from: "jwray76"Time to check Ebay for a new fuel pump.
Ok with that in mind,
is the 03 a specific pump or will other years fit,IE later year models?
thanks for the input thus far :thumbsup
I think there was a thread a little while ago that came to the conclusion that all the pumps are the same its just the backing plate that changed.
Quote from: "John Stenhouse".... as friend always used to say to me, well what have you got to lose, it doesn't work at the moment, can you make it not work more?
I like that.
It reminds me of the bit in Zen & the art of motorcycle maintenance where Pirsig talks about the broken 2p screw that makes the bike immobile. It may only be a 2p screw but the bike is worthless with it broken.
Quote from: "iansoady"Quote from: "John Stenhouse".... as friend always used to say to me, well what have you got to lose, it doesn't work at the moment, can you make it not work more?
I like that.
It reminds me of the bit in Zen & the art of motorcycle maintenance where Pirsig talks about the broken 2p screw that makes the bike immobile. It may only be a 2p screw but the bike is worthless with it broken.
I worked in the workshops of the RAF for 17 yrs; our terms were always, "It was broke when you brought it in......."
Quote from: "jwray76"Chairhead already has confirmed that the fuel pump is getting power.
Assuming that you are correct and it is getting power and iff you turn the key on and don't hear the pump cranking up to pressurize the system then its dead.
Time to check Ebay for a new fuel pump.
These are long shots, but my pump doesn't spin up if there's pressure in the fuel rail. you only hear it whine if I've had the fuel pipe off. It might be worth cracking off the fuel pressure and then trying again before scrapping the pump. Also, the pump could just be jammed by a bit of debris, it's worth having a look first at that too.
Quote from: "chairhead"Hmmmm, :roll:
starter motor spins and i can hear the pistons going up and down,so im assuming the motor is turning over,there is no fuel pump kicking in,dont know if that makes sense :?:
Is the sidestand switch still present on your rig? If that plays up it stops the pump
Quote from: "Timbox2"Is the sidestand switch still present on your rig? If that plays up it stops the pump
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"These are long shots, but my pump doesn't spin up if there's pressure in the fuel rail. you only hear it whine if I've had the fuel pipe off. It might be worth cracking off the fuel pressure and then trying again before scrapping the pump. Also, the pump could just be jammed by a bit of debris, it's worth having a look first at that too.
All good points,
ive just come back from the garage after playing with the sidestand switch
but the bike is still the same :? starter motor spins,pistons pumping up and down,i did notice the Temp gauge go up two thirds :?: ,never noticed that before,but no fuel pump :( ,
there is a fuel pump on ebay that i think i'll go for,
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160547344680&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)
it maybe that the pump is jammed or some debris is in there but i just hav'nt got the time during the day to get the tank off which is full of petrol,i have noticed the filler drain was blocked when i opened the fuel cap,so water has most likley gone into the tank :evil: ,we shall see on Saturday :roll:
I don't see anything on here about even if you have a spark,and at the risk of having the obvious pointed out why was the bike returned home,I can't see anything in your reports :oops:
Re the second hand pumps I'm amazed stuff like that doesn't get snapped up,even if you don't need e'm they'll be money in the bank in years to come,I did it with my 1100s and I'm sat on a profit margin :D
Quote from: "Chris Canning"I don't see anything on here about even if you have a spark,and at the risk of having the obvious pointed out why was the bike returned home,I can't see anything in your reports :oops:
Re the second hand pumps I'm amazed stuff like that doesn't get snapped up,even if you don't need e'm they'll be money in the bank in years to come,I did it with my 1100s and I'm sat on a profit margin :D
Chris,
in January i did the Elefantentreffen and the Tauerntreffen,
at the start of my trip i broke down(#1 coil) and on the return leg the same thing happened near Passau,this time #3 coil,the bike got left at a "triumph" dealership and i had to fly home,monday saw the return of my bike hence this thread,ive had no time to investigate properly as i work during the day,when i get home its dark and i have no power in the garage,its also a bit cramped but i can do some stuff with a head torch,not ideal i know but needs must
I got the pump for the asking price :D so even if it isnt that then ive got a very cheap pump sat on the shelf,i also got a set of coils for £40,billy bargin :lol:
Saturday i'll get all the road salt from Germany off and give it a good clean,
my local Triumph dealer said i could use the Actia :D to read any fault codes and then i shall pull her to bits so its ready for any replacement parts,just hope the weather is kind to me.
Oh right :oops: i'm with you now.
Have to say before I did anything,it's a fully strip and WD everything and try again,before I changed anything,it's good for the thought process if nothing else!!.
Quote from: "Chris Canning"Have to say before I did anything,it's a fully strip and WD everything and try again,before I changed anything,it's good for the thought process if nothing else!!.
I know what you are saying and i also know that i have probably jumped the gun in some respects :oops: ,but having the outfit back and sat in the garage for a week not being able to find and fix the fault because im restricted is very frustrating,im itching to get at it and sort it,
my enthusiasm and patience has the better of me ......at the moment :lol:
Well the fuel pump arrived,
only to be the wrong one :( i will take the pump off the new unit and place it in the old,05 is different to 03 (http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/chairhead64/becca.gif)
i did plug the pump in and turn the ignition on and again there was silence,
the four relays i have in the headlight cowl.....what are they for?
headlight
indicator
and what else,and would one of these affect the fuel pump,
im a bit stumped now......not to mention grumpy :lol:
First the relays, it sounds like you have the "both lights on all of the time" mod. If yours is standard, one lamp will light for dip and the other for main. If someone did the mod ie added two relays, both lamps will be on for dip and both for main. One relay is for headlight cutout (when you press the starter button the cutout relay turns the lights off to help the battery).
I assume you put 12v on the pump on the bench to see if there's any life in it?
If you have a multi meter you could check the pump motor winding resistance. Check the other pump too as a guide to what resistance you should expect. It won't be many ohms.
You said you have 12v at the pump connector so it's pretty much got to be the pump.
Edit: sorry, just read it again you said the new pump doesn't turn over either. But it has volts?? (And a ground.....)
Just had a look at the wiring diagram. The pump gets it's 12v from the ign fuse via the alarm bypass plug (or alarm if you have one fitted) it goes to ground through the ECU.
12v to pump also supplies the speedo and rev counter. Are you definitely getting 12v at the pin on the pump plug that has a green with a red band wire? Connect between that pin and the -ve on battery with a multimeter or bulb and a bit of wire. If it's got volts then the fault must be the pump somehow. Your battery is in good nick eh? (as you can turn the engine over I'm assuming so).
You also need to check the ground is ok. First repeat the above check, but instead of going from the multimeter or bulb to the battery, go to the black nd purple wired pin on the pump plug. If you still have volts the ground wire back to the ECU also checks out. If not, look for a fault on the ground wire, it's black with a purple band and goes from the pump plug to pin H1 of the dark grey plug on the ECU.
Hope that makes sense.
Thanks mate,
i'll try some of those tests and see how i go on,if the Ignition relay was faulty presumably i wouldnt get anything showing when i turned the key?
CAn't find an ign relay. Pump isn't on the ign circuit. Injectors and coils are on the same 12v feed, brown with orange band, also powers the lambda sensor. That wire gets 12v from ECU fuse. Coils and injectors all ground through the ECU.
Could you make a list of what's working and what's not when you go play? It would help work out what's going on.
BTW, clutch switch grounds the starter button to bring in the starter solenoid; sidestand switch grounds a pin on the ECU to tell the ECU whether its up or down.
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"CAn't find an ign relay. Pump isn't on the ign circuit. Injectors and coils are on the same 12v feed, brown with orange band, also powers the lambda sensor. That wire gets 12v from ECU fuse. Coils and injectors all ground through the ECU.
Could you make a list of what's working and what's not when you go play? It would help work out what's going on.
BTW, clutch switch grounds the starter button to bring in the starter solenoid; sidestand switch grounds a pin on the ECU to tell the ECU whether its up or down.
Ok will make a list,
sidestand isnt on the bike anymore as i dont need it,i have played about with it to make sure it is working,clutch switch is fine,will also buy a multi meter tommorow :oops:
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"You said you have 12v at the pump connector so it's pretty much got to be the pump.
Edit: sorry, just read it again you said the new pump doesn't turn over either. But it has volts?? (And a ground.....)
IIRC it's the earth that's switched by the ECU via the relay not the live side so even though you have 12V doesn't mean it's being switched. I'd try a jumper cable straight from the battery to eliminate / confirm a pump problem.
No relay on my drawing Ian, relay is for 885i model. CH has a 955i no? If it's 885i ignore everything I said... :cry:
Ok,
so i put 12v to the pump,which works :D ,
at first i thought it was'nt because its so quite,just like a hum,and we all know that quite isnt one of the characteristics of the Girly pump,
so then i fitted it back to the bike and tried it.....nothing,
power everywhere it should be,one thing that is wrong though and that s the fuel gauge......its working......and its not even plugged in!!!,
ive swapped the relays over from the front to the one under the seat near the fuse box,what is that by the way?,will tackle it again today....maybe more later.
The relay near the fuse box is the ECU hold on relay. Very important because you'll corrupt the ECU trim setting if it's not working and it'll run rough. When you turn ign off or use the kill switch, ECU keeps power on to itself via that relay, until it's saved all it's trims then it releases the relay and shuts itself down. Listen for the click about 2 secs after you turn key off.
Edit: I just checked, there are two relays there and I'm in a rush so can't sort which is which for you. Just touch both lightly and feel for the click after turning ign off. That's the ECU one which you need to be working.
Me again!,
so i poped down to my local dealer to ask if i could borrow the Actia and the workshop manual...."i'll bring it back first thing monday morning" i said,
good job i know them :D
well i tried to use it but only got as far as "connection error,retry?"
or words to that effect,so kept at it for a few more times and thought
somethings not right,
so i pulled off the connectors for the ECU...........(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/chairhead64/becca.gif)
i think this might be the problem
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/chairhead64/DSCF3921x.jpg)
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/chairhead64/DSCF3926x.jpg)
where do i go from here? :cry:
OMG - it's surprising it's been running at all.
I don't know where you can get the connectors but maybe a loom from a breaker might be in order. And crossed fingers that that hasn't caused / isn't caused by a problem in the ECU itself.
The manual tells you which pins do what but in that state any of them could be shorting / open circuit / high resistance.
I'll give you a tenner for it. The whole bike that is......
<edit> just noticed the 2nd pic. I think you need an ECU </edit>
OK I'll post this again as link, try talking to these folk, they do car ECUs, they rebuilt one we sent to them that was buried in muddy water on the inside of a shogun! It was toast, came back good as new no worries.
I would guess if they can get connectors then you've got no worries as they will get you both sides then it's just a question of re wiring to the new connector.
Ok heres the link: http://www.the-ecu-doctor.co.uk/ (http://www.the-ecu-doctor.co.uk/)
Talk to them and explain, see what they say.
Only question I have is why did it do that?
At a guess I'd say corrosion on the pins. Given that almost everything goes to ground through the ECU it wouldn't take much crud to create a high resistance leading to heat leading to burnt plastic....
Certainly is a new one on me though.
Another option is Ebay, any Sagem 1000 will do, as you can use TuneECU to blow in a Tiger map. My spare came from a 955 Daytona.
Thinking about it Chairhead, you might not have had a coil pack issue the first time :roll:
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Another option is Ebay, any Sagem 1000 will do, as you can use TuneECU to blow in a Tiger map. My spare came from a 955 Daytona.
What year range does that hold true for? In other words, since I'm running a 2000 with the 885 engine could I buy an 01 Daytona ECU and remap it even though it came from a 955?
I have fallen head over heels for this bike and plan on keeping it for a very long time. I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea to have one of these on my parts shelf.
I don't think you have the SAGEM 1000 in the 885. And Im not sure that Tune ECU works on your ECU either. I'm afraid I have no knowledge of your model :cry:
Quote from: "topher0268"Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Another option is Ebay, any Sagem 1000 will do, as you can use TuneECU to blow in a Tiger map. My spare came from a 955 Daytona.
What year range does that hold true for? In other words, since I'm running a 2000 with the 885 engine could I buy an 01 Daytona ECU and remap it even though it came from a 955?
I have fallen head over heels for this bike and plan on keeping it for a very long time. I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea to have one of these on my parts shelf.
Your bike will have the earlier MC2000 ECU, which the Earlier Daytonas also used. Im pretty sure they are quite different looking, 2 plugs on the later ECU, 1 big Plug on yours, but im not 100% on that, BB will know.
Oops, no he wont.
God I have never seen that before, I didn't think that much current whent through the ECU, hence the small pins.
But looking on the bright side, you know whats wrong and it is fixable
Quote from: "topher0268"Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Another option is Ebay, any Sagem 1000 will do, as you can use TuneECU to blow in a Tiger map. My spare came from a 955 Daytona.
What year range does that hold true for? In other words, since I'm running a 2000 with the 885 engine could I buy an 01 Daytona ECU and remap it even though it came from a 955?
I have fallen head over heels for this bike and plan on keeping it for a very long time. I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea to have one of these on my parts shelf.
Hey topher0268 !! this site should help cross ref parts.....
http://www.originaltriumphparts.info/ (http://www.originaltriumphparts.info/)
Hey chairhead !! Ouch !! that looks like my toast :shock: but will be repairable :)
KK
Quote from: "John Stenhouse"OK I'll post this again as link, try talking to these folk, they do car ECUs, they rebuilt one we sent to them that was buried in muddy water on the inside of a shogun! It was toast, came back good as new no worries.
I would guess if they can get connectors then you've got no worries as they will get you both sides then it's just a question of re wiring to the new connector.
Ok heres the link: http://www.the-ecu-doctor.co.uk/ (http://www.the-ecu-doctor.co.uk/)
Talk to them and explain, see what they say.
Only question I have is why did it do that?
Thanks for the info John,
ive decided to go down the Ebay route and have bought a loom and ecu for £130,not bad me thinks as a new ecu is £1200 :shock:
and thanks to all who have helped out,BB big thanks to you for taking the time to try and help me solve this problem,i owe you a couple of pints and maybe you can cash them in at the the annual meet,who knows :thumbsup
No worries, we're all learning, all the time. It would have taken a long time before I'd blamed the ECU let alone the plugs as they're not a known weak point.
Quote from: "Timbox2"Your bike will have the earlier MC2000 ECU, which the Earlier Daytonas also used. Im pretty sure they are quite different looking, 2 plugs on the later ECU, 1 big Plug on yours, but im not 100% on that, BB will know.
Oops, no he wont.
He guys thought this might be helpful to the community. It appears that at least SOME of the 2000 models (885i models 99-00) do in fact have the MC1000. I verified that my 2000 model has the two connector model and the label, though nearly worn away says ST1000 on it. My serial number is in the 90000 range of the model line.
The More You Know ... :idea:
Quote from: "topher0268"Quote from: "Timbox2"Your bike will have the earlier MC2000 ECU, which the Earlier Daytonas also used. Im pretty sure they are quite different looking, 2 plugs on the later ECU, 1 big Plug on yours, but im not 100% on that, BB will know.
Oops, no he wont.
He guys thought this might be helpful to the community. It appears that at least SOME of the 2000 models (885i models 99-00) do in fact have the MC1000. I verified that my 2000 model has the two connector model and the label, though nearly worn away says ST1000 on it. My serial number is in the 90000 range of the model line.
The More You Know ... :idea:
Yep, I stand corrected, your right, even says so in the Haynes book of lies Tigers from Vin 89737 went to the later ECM, as you say learning all the time.
So fellow Tiger riders,
as the black block connector that goes into the ECU/ECM is gash
i thought i would take a closer look and try and see why/what happened,
one squeeze of my Knipex side cutters and it was off :twisted:
i took apart the connector in order to see what wire went where
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/chairhead64/DSCF3931x.jpg)
i can only summise that the gunk is burnt grease,once i removed said gunk,bare wire can be seen
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/chairhead64/DSCF3932.jpg)
now armed with a workshop manual and the wiring diagram i can see what the most damaged wires pertain to,the first one is
brown/pink=1/H4 =common to all three coils :evil:
Yellow/purple=1/H2 =injector 2
Yellow/pink=1/H3 =injector 1
Black/purple=1/H1= fuel pump :lol:
why this has happend,still dont know,maybe a bit of moisture that could have froze then melted,i will for sure check the rest of the loom,id be fool not to,
one thing i did notice with the block connector.....its french :shock:
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/chairhead64/DSCF3935.jpg)
I had a steamer igniter fail once and it was the transistor in the ecu for #1 coil stuck on and it melted the #1 coil just like your lump in your hand , my guess would be that since you melted the epoxy coating its sealed in you possibly have a bad ecu that feeds the coilpaks ........ just a guess though
but dont be surprised if you repair it and it melts down again THE ECU COULD STILL BE BAD , just sayin ............
Quote from: "Mustang"but dont be surprised if you repair it and it melts down again THE ECU COULD STILL BE BAD , just sayin ............
I will be changing the ECU,
the original is too far gone for me to repair,a second hand one is on its way along with a loom.
Is it a Tiger ECU CH?
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Is it a Tiger ECU CH?
No,
its a speed triple,which will be remapped :roll: ....dont tell me it wont work :oops:,i thought any of the 955i's ECU's would work.......no?
No, it can be remapped no problem, just wasn't sure how you were going to do it, are yoou about to get into TuneECU or are you going to the stealer?
Stealer will most likely only have the latest map (which seems to be working out pretty well on mine so far so should be a good bet for you). I have 3 or 4 older versions plus my own.
Can hardly call my local dealer a stealer now can i :lol:
after all they are lending me the Actia to do it myself :D ,
so i shall be saving a few pennys and gaining a bit of knowledge....i hope
i do have my reservations on how well its going to turn out though,
i hope very much that it will be the same as it was because i loved the way the bike was set up,to try and recreate that might be a little tricky
or is it me being daft? :lol:
That was why I said go with the rebuild route, not only do you get a unit you know the history of they can extract the tune data and reload it.
Once you blow in the Tiger tune (the latest 10173 seems pretty good but does pop a bit on overrun) don't be dissapointed if it's not good straight away. As it's a full tune rather than a re-map you'll need to give it a good few miles for the trims to adjust and settle down. And make sure your battery is fully charged before you start :wink:
So my second hand parts came during the week,ECU and loom,and
today i got chance to look at them closely,the ECU is in great shape,alot cleaner than mine but the loom had three fittings missing and a couple were broke :| ,i was going to change the loom but thats now out of the question,instead i cut the block connector off for number 1 port on the ECU,
then a lot of soldering and heatshrinking ensued,the majority of it straight forward,i did notice however three black/green wires so i left those until last,they are for
fuel level sensor
fuel warning light
fuel gauge
i will suss those out tommorow.
with all the soldering done for today my curiosity turned to my old ECU,
i took it off and turned it over,it was very dirty and going rusty,i knew i wasnt going to use it again and peeled the back off,and im glad i did,
what i found makes me happy and 95% sure why it went tits up
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/chairhead64/DSCF3943x.jpg)
Not surprised CH. I sealed up all the ways in for water / crud that I could find after seeing the state of the back of mine, though thankfully not as bad as yours. Funny thing is, that circuit board should be completely encased in resin not open like that :shock:
So you should be good to go tomorrow :wink:
Yep, and Ive just lifted mine to have a look, also not as bad but the corrosion has started on the back plate, loads of ACF50 then sealed up those rediculous holes, I mean what are they for for christ sake :?
Joy of joy's,
it lives :D !!!!,finished wiring up the bike today and its a runner,
on the down side number 3 coil is Fubar,
still waiting on some coils to come from the states,once i have them the bike can go back together and a Tiger tune put in,i can see the light at the end of the tunnel :lol:
(http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/chairhead64/IMG_1724x.jpg)
What i cant see is all the holes in the rear mudguard!,
they now have all been plugged,like you say Timbox2,WTF!