So here are some photos of the front cam chain guide that exploded in my '95 Steamer. I am by no means a mechanic but I have a copy of the sometimes difficult to understand Haynes manual and I am going to make an attempt at replacing this thing. A mechanic from the Triumph dealer has told me that he thinks that the case has been ground down and will require either a new case or some very technical engine welding to bring the ground portion back to specs and allow the new guide to be replaced. The mushroomed metal looks to me to be part of the old guide that was ground down by the loose chain and not part of the case. I guess I will find out once I take the cylinder head off to have a better look. Do any of you gurus have any major words of wisdom before I dive into this any further? Any advice would be great! :D
I don't understand the problem. Is the mount for the slider fubared?
If so, then start looking for another engine, or part your bike out and buy mine so I can get my new XC. :D
Hey JetdocX, I'm not sure - I have not taken off the cylinder head yet and that mushroomed piece of metal is about as good of a view as I have at this point. I would buy your bike if I had the cash - looks like a beauty but I now have my mind set on resurrecting the black beast.
Well, got time for me to come over and have a look at it? PM me. I'm happy to do it. At least I can try to help you decide what direction to go and what your options might be.
a replacement upper case half is always a solution and one could be had easier than you might think .
here's a complete upper and lower case for 99 bucks
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/93-94-95 ... 3a592d67bd (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/93-94-95-96-97-98-Triumph-Tiger-900-Engine-Motor-Cases-/250604251069?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a592d67bd)
same guy also has a complete head assembly
If I was in your situation.......................it would be a no brainer for me and the 99 bucks would already be in his paypal acct . :D
Thanks Mustang - just bought me an upper and lower case! Thank you. Now I just have to figure out how to do all this stuff... :shock:
Does anyone know if the case screws pictured are T50's - it seems a bit loose with a 50. Also - do these need to be heated before removal - they seem awfully stubborn? Also - here are a few photos of what I am dealing with.
I broke one of my drivers on one of those bolts. They are way overtorqued from the gorillas in the factory.
Sorry, can't remember the size, just use the largest torx that will fit in the hole.
Thanks JetdocX, do you think they would benefit from a little torching? Any thread lock on those?
please be careful with the torching. There's lots of combustibles around. And that aluminum won't take much more than 800 degrees.
Finally! Little heat and a 2 foot breaker pipe and... shazaaam!
You're a rock star now! :D
you need to get that lump out of the frame and on a bench , it will be easier to work on .
Quote from: "Mustang"you need to get that lump out of the frame and on a bench , it will be easier to work on .
And you said that without mentioning re-sealing the cylinder liners once :lol:
Quote from: "Bixxer Bob"Quote from: "Mustang"you need to get that lump out of the frame and on a bench , it will be easier to work on .
And you said that without mentioning re-sealing the cylinder liners once :lol:
in due time........................... :ImaPoser
Thanks Mustang - I will post after I have removed the head. I am only able to work on it very occasionally. The next job is to scoot back the airbox and remove the carbs. My new cases should be in soon so I can compare them and see if I can use the older one or not - I don't think I will know till it comes off. Even though I would like to replace the lower case I have a feeling that replacing it may be way over my head as it would require me to swap out the tranny, clutch etc. - corect?
Be careful just replacing the upper case only as these cases are line bored at manufacture to match each other. If you are replacing the cases it is a full strip out anyway. Just take it step by step according to the manual and they are very straight forward, just remember to clean everything very well removing ALL traces of gasket and gasket goo and assemble in an environment you would be happy to eat from. You have been confident to go in and have a look so the rest is proceedure. Believe me I have seen far worse cases that have been repaired and are fine as there is plenty of 'meat' where the chain has made contact, looks like the tensioner has failed in your case. If you do carry on and strip the lump label and bag parts for later assembly and if you get really stuck then just ask.
:iagree ^^ this
and take lots of pics before and as you disassemble they will help refresh your memory 3 months from now
A little excited but mostly nervous - thanks for all the advice! I will keep you posted...
So before I start trying to bang off the head - what is the bolt shown here and do they need to come out first (there are two of them on either side of the head - stainless I think)? Haynes does not mention them - it just says "remove the head", after mentioning other screws. In addition to these - do I need to take anything else out that is in there? Or do I just take off the carbs, remove the two bolts attaching the head to the frame and bang away? Thanks for the help!
I can't see what you're pointing at.
There are two bolts on the exhaust side that need to be removed before the head will come off. They are inverted, head down screwing up into the head. They will probably take an angle driver to remove.
Thanks JetdocX, I have taken care of everything on the exterior - these stainless steel ones are inside and sunken down next to the spark plug.
Well whatever those screws are that I mention above they obviously don't need to come out to lift the head. Today I was able to remove the carbs and air filter, support the engine and lift the head. I am finding it difficult to get the head out from under the frame because the engine bolts (8 of them) are too long to pull out the top as they hit the frame. As pictured here you can see that too much of the bolt remains inserted into the case to slip the head off to either side. I think tomorrow I will try zip tying the bolts halfway pulled out to see if that gives me enough room. Any other ideas are EXTREMELY welcomed. Please excuse the excessive mud/dirt - I use the bike primarily off road.
Here is an angelic glow over the head of my Steamer with the carbs dangling out of the way on the left. The angels were singing when I got the carbs and air filter off and then sighed when I couldn't get the head off. Keep in mind - I'm a winemaker - not a mechanic.
<HINT>ya know if you unhook the throttle cable at the twist grip you can put the carbs on the bench and won't run the risk of ruining a perfectly good throttle cable </HINT>
it will be a lot easier for you if you unhook the alternator and pickup sensor wires and put a jack under the sump and pull out the remaining four engine bolts and loosen the swing arm pivot bolts and let the lump down out of the frame .
you also have to get the chain and front sprocket before you can drop the engine . oh yeah the skid pan and footpegs gotta go to if you haven't already removed them
Thanks Mustang - I thought I would take the easy way out this time round but much more complicated stuff may be in my near future. Thanks JetdocX for the idea of holding 4 of the 8 bolts with the zip ties to get the head out - it worked like a charm! However, now that the head is off I am able to see the damage to the case where the slot should be for the front cam chain guide - in the pictures you will see that it is almost non-existent as it has been ground down by the loose chain that was in there before. I have included a picture of what the slot should look like from the new cases I bought. The guide will still fit in the old case but it is not nearly as secure.
Do you think that I could get away with using the cases the way they are or is that asking for trouble? It seems that with the head in place keeping the guide snug and the pressure of the chain it would keep things where they need to be but maybe someone else has more experience with this than me (like everyone here!).
I would love to not change out the cases because that seems like it would be 10 times the work that I am already committed to by using the old case as is. How huge of a job is it to swap out the cases? I know all the guts of the engine need to be swapped out once it has been removed but do they come out as individual pieces or does some of the stuff come out partially assembled (does that make sense?)?
Also - in looking at the area around the cylinder sleeves I see a considerable amount of what looks like sludge. Is that from small amounts of oil getting into the coolant from the sleeves that may not be completely sealed or is that just old coolant that has turned weird? I have only had the bike for about a year and I doubt if the previous owner drained the coolant much. The strange thing is that I never saw coolant in the oil - I would think that if oil got into the coolant then coolant would get into the oil.
Sorry to be so long winded but I am at a critical point of deciding what to do. Thanks in advance for any input!
Unless you're figuring on unloading that bike very soon, I'd do the extra work. Think of it a penance for riding on with the bike making massively bad noises. Bad boy! Disassemble engine!
The sludge is from old nasty coolant. Maybe it's time to clean and flush your radiator and thermostat.
I have a real service manual if you would like to borrow it. Sounds like you may need it. Baby steps and small bites. Beg, borrow or steal any special tools you may need along the way.
You're going to need a higher quality torque wrench to reassemble the engine. Start looking for one now. I may even be able to loan you one, provided I'm not using it at work.
Thanks JetdocX - I may take you up on the generous offer! I have one from cycle gear but I have no idea how good/bad it is.
As for the sound - yes it was present for quite some time. Everyone told me they are supposed to sound like a tractor! I took it to the dealer to have them test ride it and they said it was all good and normal. Also took it to a guy who owned two steamers and is a part time mechanic - he thought it sounded fine. With so few around it is hard to tell! Truth is it only sounded horrible at certain speeds and certain rpm's - the faster I went the less sound it made so I obliged with higher speeds (wish I knew then what I know now!).
How difficult is it to swap the cases?
I don't know. Never been that far into a motorbike. And so far I'm glad.
Get the engine out of the beast and it's mobile. Spend the $$ and get the parts cleaned. Then have a trained eye inspect them for premature failure.
If you're unsure of your abilities, and or a clean place to work, I'm sure a local machine shop would love to blueprint that engine for you. It's a damed rare bike!
So you're at a place where it's probably going to cost more than the bike is worth to repair it. I've been there. I love riding my bike. So I'm twice into more than it's worth, fuck it. I still get the, "What is that?" whereever I take it. You either love it or hate it at this point. Or both. If you love it, or love it and hate it at the same time, spend the time effort and cash and straighten it out. If you just hate it, then part it out.
I'd be thinking of a stainless pin thru the plastic cam chain guide and 2 drilled notches into the edges of the tunnel where the small alloy spuds have worn away to prevent it dropping thru into the lower case (or a hole right thru from the outside sealed with chemical metal or a grub screw)
I think It prudent to Stop where you are and evaluate really just how much work there is in flushing cleaning stripping down and rebuilding to the new cases How much chance of a fubarred screw or a misaligned dog for a gear etc
If it were me I'd be looking to clean everything really really well test the idea of the stainless pin and the notches and Personally I think It will work fine You could buy another guide and set it up in the second block to do your measurements to make sure you're happy! It would be just an Hour or two fettling around against at least a day to strip clean and start to rebuild the other? And teh block is scrap anyway so what have you to loose?
At the end of the day, provided that you can get the new guide to perform at 85% of it's design spec it will be fine
It broke up and the engine still ran a testament to triumph build quality!
Thanks guys - Jaythro I think that is a great idea - saves me time and money and sounds reasonable. JetdocX I do really like the bike but my finances and skills will be the limiting factor. I don't want to part her out quite yet. I like the idea of using a pin or a screw to keep the guide in place from the top - seems it should work just fine that way. Also a thought, could a bead of aluminum be welded there to simulate the original slot(?).
If I go the route of a screw from the outside, what would be the best sort of metal to use? Do I need to be concerned with the heating of the two different metals and compatibility with respect to that? Thank you both.
Quote from: "mantramoto"Thanks guys - Jaythro I think that is a great idea - saves me time and money and sounds reasonable. JetdocX I do really like the bike but my finances and skills will be the limiting factor. I don't want to part her out quite yet. I like the idea of using a pin or a screw to keep the guide in place from the top - seems it should work just fine that way. Also a thought, could a bead of aluminum be welded there to simulate the original slot(?).
If I go the route of a screw from the outside, what would be the best sort of metal to use? Do I need to be concerned with the heating of the two different metals and compatibility with respect to that? Thank you both.
It would be extremely difficult to weld that as oil would have penetrated the metal, and ali welding has to be fastidiously clean. I think the blue-ing suggestion is what I would have gone for. I'd hate to have to split the crank cases. Too much heartache, you can bet on that.
JD has the answer
you got new cases that was the hard part .....................
swap the guts or get a shop to do it for you it will be worth it .
I fear you'll be sorry if you start drilling and pinning the case to hold the slider in
Thanks for the advice BruKen and Mustang - I agree that the best way will be what JD suggested however I am trying not to leave any stones unturned at this point. I am thinking that if I put a bandaid on it now I can always come back and do it right the next time having taken it apart once it will be easier the 2nd time.
Having said that - what do you think of these ideas from a friend that is not a Steamer owner?
.......
Mantramoto, it's hard for me to give accurate advice without knowing the motor and holding the parts in my hand, but here is my impression so far.
- The only "right" way to fix it is to use a new case. Complexity of the swap is unknown. With the motor out of the bike, maybe a shop or side-job mechanic could do it for you? Perfect outcome is not assured even if you pay someone. If you want to tackle it yourself, you really need to review the manual for the critical steps (setting bearing pre-loads, special tools, etc.).
- Anything but a new case is a hack. Question is, how critical are those nubs and what kind of forces do they receive with an intact tensioner system? Are they really necessary if your hydraulic tensioner is working? Is the movement of the plastic slider similarly constrained with/without the nubs in place and the chain under tension? Anyway, sounds like welding is out. I don't really like the idea of set-screws to immobilize the part, and it looks like access is a major challenge here anyway.
- What are the dimensions of the good nubs on the replacement case (length/width in mm)?
- Here are some other hacks to consider:
(a) Grind off the remaining nubs and dremel/file slots into the case (looks pretty thick in that area). Use JB-Weld to epoxy some appropriately sized aluminum stock into your new slot. I cringe at the idea of using JB-Weld internally, and if that metal came loose down the road it could spell trouble, but it is a hack after all. You'd have to go in with the precision of a dentist...
(b) Looks like the nubs are pretty short top to bottom? Is there a nub on the corresponding part of the head that attaches there? I assume not. Is the head contact area wide enough to overlap the nubs? How about if you drill the head and install some pins or set screws to point downward into the gap where the case nubs used to be? You'd need a drill press for the precision, and the head would have to be beefy enough in that region to engage a good amount of pin.
(c) Bail on the nubs. Drill a hole for a large bolt behind the plastic slider - something like an oil drain plug to provide good support for the plastic. Shim the bolt to achieve proper positioning of the slider, loctite it in place to seal it, and call it a day.
He's calling anything other than the case swaps a hack. I'd have to agree. Sorry. :cry:
Yes I agree with you guys that Changing the cases is the perfect solution but we don't live in a perfect world.
I have learned that if something is functional and safe or can be made so then it is usually okay and I am willing to give it a shot
Half an hour playing with a drill and a stainless rod of about 3 or 4 mm in diameter surely is worth a go
Surely those little edges cannot compete with a rod carefully fitted and inserted I mean the guide doesn't do anything more than guide and protect the casing and shouldn't really be under enormous pressure besides the new guide will have flexibility
I would say if you can get a cube of alloy (or a block of hardwood) to neatly fit into the tunnel and carefully tap it into the tunnel to prevent distortion of the edges you should be able to centrepunch and drill down vertically and make 2 notches without wrecking anything and remove the block and finish the insides after
Hopefully my diagram clears up what I mean The left part is a top view and the right side is what I envisage for the inside edges of the tunnel it doesn't have to be a perfect circle it's as long as the pin is supported and doesn't protrude a dab of good silicone gasket will help cushion and retain it and stop it moving to much
Mustang and JetDocX I am not thumbing my nose at you guys merely offering a solution that I think is worth a try for a relative novice with restricted funds
.
Every time I take a shortcut, it ends up biting me in the ass later. Just sayin'. Although I do like the pin idea and might be tempted...
Thanks Jaythro - I like this idea. There is a hollow pin that is surrounded by plastic that usually fits into the slot on the new guide. I think I will put a smaller diameter pin through that hollow one and try something like you have outlined by perhaps using a dremel tool. My only concern may be that a hard metal like stainless may begin to erode the aluminum under lots of vibration??? Thank you very much for the diagram. I am still considering other options (other ideas are welcome) but this one seems like it should do the job. I will make a decision in the next few days as other ideas may get posted and give myself some time to chew on it. Thanks!
Quote from: "mantramoto"Thanks Jaythro - I like this idea. There is a hollow pin that is surrounded by plastic that usually fits into the slot on the new guide. I think I will put a smaller diameter pin through that hollow one and try something like you have outlined by perhaps using a dremel tool. My only concern may be that a hard metal like stainless may begin to erode the aluminum under lots of vibration??? Thank you very much for the diagram. I am still considering other options (other ideas are welcome) but this one seems like it should do the job. I will make a decision in the next few days as other ideas may get posted and give myself some time to chew on it. Thanks!
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee47/2uoykcuf/emoticons/nono.gif)
as much as you are afraid to swap the cases , it is the only proper and viable solution , just sayin ,
I myself would never even consider drilling the case and pinning it .....swap the cases , or pay someone to do it for you.
I was just looking at my spare case I have and there is no friggin way you are going to be able to drill a perfectly straight and square hole in that case with a dremel, hand drill or such .
Let me know how it turns out , because I am betting that at the end of the day you will be swapping cases after all .
Here's something else to consider , where did all the aluminum from the case end up ?
That's right in the oil , pumped thru a running engine that has a lot of little nooks and crannys not to mention oil passages . that motor needs to be disassembled and flushed very very good . or you will be looking at this next when it goes pop
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee47/2uoykcuf/repairs/101_1817.jpg)
bearings don't like shit in the oil
this is why you need to disassemble and clean and use the new cases .
Hmmm, that's compelling. But the only guy I know around here that could do it would be JetdocX. Need some extra cash for that new 800 JD?
Quote from: "mantramoto"Hmmm, that's compelling. But the only guy I know around here that could do it would be JetdocX. Need some extra cash for that new 800 JD?
Need cash. No time, unfortunately. :(
True of all of us. Just admit to being scared. No shame. :lol: :lol:
Quote from: "BruKen"True of all of us. Just admit to being scared. No shame. :lol: :lol:
Well, there's that, too. I might try it if it was my engine, but I'd probably look for a Daytona engine to drop in instead.
Just voicing my own thoughts JD. Swapping internals about shouldn't be too big a heartache. Splitting the crank of a 15 year old bike that has had time to corrode itself together is going to be a bugger of a job. Brings back memories it does. None of them particularly dear.
No worries JD, I understand. I have been circling the engine for the past few days like it is a wounded wild animal - wondering if I dare to pull out the thorn from its paw!
You got nothing to lose but your temper, and everything to gain. Go for it! Oh, and post pics. :wink:
Follow the steps in the manual and it is a straight forward proceedure, you are nearly there just take your time and it comes apart very quick. Reassembly is a bit more involved but again follow each step in the book and keep it really clean and use a real good jointing compound. Triumph used blue hylomar on those engines, especially sealing the liners, Have done a few of these now and they come apart real easy and are easy to reassemble, my 10 year old assembled the last one under insruction from me as I was recovering from an errant horse collision and he found it straight forward but he does help out now and again.
GO FOR IT what do you have to lose, if you have a prob just ask.
Going for it in baby steps: today I took out the cylinder sleeves and one piston. At this point you really feel committed. I wasn't going to remove the sleeves after reading a post on this site (Rocinante?) that talked about only re-sealing them unless one was slightly proud. They all looked fine - however, after looking up into the case with the oil sump off I could see drips of coolant leaking onto the thing that drives the pistons - I knew that was not good and must have been coming from the disturbed sleeves. Looking at the sleeves you can see where over time the coolant had leaked down between the case and the sleeve (I never saw coolant in the oil - but maybe it burned up in the hot oil. The sleeves took a bit of patience and lots of gentle wiggling but eventually came out with twists and pulls. The piston pin was quite the lesson in motorcycle proctology - this took some time but eventually came out - I still have to do the other two. Sorry some photos are upside down, I don't know how to correct it.
Gotta say, you walk the walk . Much respect for getting in there. I think you have done the right thing, so keep us all posted, and good luck..
Nice. Are you going to be changing the rings?
Yeehaa! Way to go :hello2 :icon_salut
remember to keep all pistons, liners, gudgeon pins, cam caps etc labeled or boxed in such a way that they all go back in the exact same place and direction as they came out. Dont want to be mixing and matching bedded in parts.
Quote from: "CoolHandLuke"Nice. Are you going to be changing the rings?
I wasn't going to change them - the bike only has 40+ K miles and everything in there looks fine, does not burn oil and compression seemed good before the cam guide mis-adventure. The cylinder sleeves look good, cross hatching is still apparent. But again, I am not mechanic - should I be changing them? I am trying to keep the cost down to a minimum by only replacing the essentials.
Quote from: "mantramoto"Quote from: "CoolHandLuke"Nice. Are you going to be changing the rings?
I wasn't going to change them - the bike only has 40+ K miles and everything in there looks fine, does not burn oil and compression seemed good before the cam guide mis-adventure. The cylinder sleeves look good, cross hatching is still apparent.
you should be fine ..and look at it this way even if they do cause a problem later on , you will be experienced now. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX0XVEmwlfs
Quote from: "mantramoto"The cylinder sleeves look good, cross hatching is still apparent. But again, I am not mechanic - should I be changing them? I am trying to keep the cost down to a minimum by only replacing the essentials.
You will likely see the cross hatching on the liners at 80k+, too. Certainly the engines I have seen apart still have them.
If it's not burning oil and everything looks in good condition it is not necessary. I think it is something I would do, if I stripped the engine that thoroughly, as the rings are not too expensive, IIRC.
I don't know if you can buy rings separate but the piston ring set is bloody expensive IIRC 78 GBP a shot or 450ish if you did a proper job and did wet liners too. If your rings need replacing chances are excellent all needs replacing.
Quote from: "BruKen"I don't know if you can buy rings separate but the piston ring set is bloody expensive IIRC 78 GBP a shot or 450ish if you did a proper job and did wet liners too. If your rings need replacing chances are excellent all needs replacing.
No, this is not necessarily true. I have seen knackered rings and the liners have been fine. The rings in one case seemed to have lost all their spring.
One thing I would add, make sure the rings go back the right way, so that the gap on each ring is facing the right way.
Thanks for all the input guys - it is all very much appreciated, the more opinions the better. And thanks for the flashback Mustang!
Quote from: "CoolHandLuke"You will likely see the cross hatching on the liners at 80k+, too. Certainly the engines I have seen apart still have them.
If it's not burning oil and everything looks in good condition it is not necessary. I think it is something I would do, if I stripped the engine that thoroughly, as the rings are not too expensive, IIRC.
I'm with CoolHandLuke.
I just did this sort of job on a 2003 Buell XB9S. The cylinders both has the hatching apparent but the rear had some scoring in a couple of places. Since a ring set is $30 and a hone is $22 per cylinder at Bill Bune Motors ("We do boring work" heh heh) here in town, I figured it was something I couldn't afford
not to do. This was an air-cooled engine, though; they don't wear the same really, or so I've heard. YMMV.
EDIT: your pistons may one day look this nice!
(http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zWrqOPLu-Os/Tf1KV5IVmAI/AAAAAAAAA4A/67JrJ__TMAY/s800/IMG_20110528_173037.jpg)
Christ almighty what a waste of aluminum! Water cooled is definitely the way to go. :roll: Love that H-D technology. "Decades of tradition without regard to progress." :lol:
Oh, and edit: I did not replace my rings. Everything was kosher after reassembly, but I was careful with them. The gaps should be indexed 120 degrees apart with reference to the piston. Line them all up and you will be blowing through oil! :lol:
Quote from: "JetdocX"Christ almighty what a waste of aluminum! Water cooled is definitely the way to go. :roll: Love that H-D technology. "Decades of tradition without regard to progress." :lol:
I'm sure Erik Buell would agree with you, JDX. They are, however, easier to work on.
I have been stalled trying to devise a piston pin puller for the other two stubborn pistons - and work related travel has kept me far from a wrench...but I am still at it.
Aerokroil and a heat gun usually breaks them loose.
Thanks JD - I will try this in the next week or so.
Here is my super fancy heat gun by Vidal Sassoon - a little heat and the pin slid right out!