:XXsunsmile Greetings from Oregon!
I bought my old Girl back this week for half what I sold it for three years ago because she's a part of me, and needed some attention desperately; she had a light knock under load that led to a clatter at all rpm which resulted in a silent coast to a stop safely on the wayside on the first ride out.
There's no way I'm going to brick the prodigal Tiger, so I need options for a re-power; 955cc I think is the only way to go...
My first thought is to re-sleeve and replace the pistons, bent or broken parts (at this point undiscovered, pictures soon) and other bits that make the 885 a 955 if that is in fact doable.
Second thought is to find a 955 from a wreck and bolt it in the '99 frame.
Third option is to go back to the 885 but let's be honest with ourselves; there is no replacement for displacement, Right?
anyone here done or heard of this being done?
Fitting the engine is a straight swap.
Although you will need the throttle bodies and fuel pump plate with lines. The single fuel line is much better than the twin you have now. Never tried running the 885 throttle bodies on a 955 though.
Ecu if you have the early single plug ecu this will have to be changed for the twin plug and of course the loom. If you have the twin plug ecu then just blow the 955 map into it.
The airbox has an extra hole in it clean side, this will need plugging. Exhaust down pipes are very different although I am told the 885 ones can be made to fit with a bit of fettling but the 955 system will get rid of that resonator box, the down pipe skid plate is different.
Oil cooler is in a different place but does the same job, if you use the old one it must be internally spotless as if the engine has gone bang then there could be muck in the cooler and lines.
Let us know how you get on and post some pics please.
local dealer says the internals are a straight swap, so sleeves and pistons and, if my assumption of skipped timing chain plays out, valves, plus the associated gaskets and other moving bits....
Friend of a friend has the TuneBoy software and I'm a mechanic by training and from birth, so this should be gravy.
and Roberts your Mother's Brother.
Cylinder head is different with bigger valves on 955 so if top end is mashed then way to go. Engine swap is probably cheaper easier and quicker.
Been there and done it many times.
Definetly a full on heart and lung transfer,and to give you some idea how close the bikes are,the body work on my 955 is off an 885,what I never worked out their totally different to sit on,well the 885i you sit 'in' the 955 'on' :?
Quote from: "metalguru"Cylinder head is different with bigger valves on 955 so if top end is mashed then way to go. Engine swap is probably cheaper easier and quicker.
Been there and done it many times.
is there an online parts breakdown for the triumph line that is respected?
I have the Clymer manual and there is no mention of different valves for the 955/885, but it does break down different compression ratio, HP, Torque, etc for the 955i in the Sprint; I will talk to the dealer and parts man tomorrow when they open and verify this, but I think I can swap liners, pistons and rings, and keep the same head with new valves if needed (will be tearing into it today to see) and load a Sprint map to the ECU and be set. I believe there may be changes in cam profile and duration, but without the dealers help that's conjecture at this point.
I'll be posting pictures as I get into the engine proper; stay tuned...
Quote from: "blume"is there an online parts breakdown for the triumph line that is respected?
I have the Clymer manual and there is no mention of different valves for the 955/885, but it does break down different compression ratio, HP, Torque, etc for the 955i in the Sprint; I will talk to the dealer and parts man tomorrow when they open and verify this, but I think I can swap liners, pistons and rings, and keep the same head with new valves if needed (will be tearing into it today to see) and load a Sprint map to the ECU and be set. I believe there may be changes in cam profile and duration, but without the dealers help that's conjecture at this point.
I'll be posting pictures as I get into the engine proper; stay tuned...
bike bandit has parts breakdown for all year tigers by model year .
http://www.bikebandit.com (http://www.bikebandit.com)
click on the OEM parts link
Quote from: "blume"Quote from: "metalguru"Cylinder head is different with bigger valves on 955 so if top end is mashed then way to go. Engine swap is probably cheaper easier and quicker.
Been there and done it many times.
is there an online parts breakdown for the triumph line that is respected?
I have the Clymer manual and there is no mention of different valves for the 955/885, but it does break down different compression ratio, HP, Torque, etc for the 955i in the Sprint; I will talk to the dealer and parts man tomorrow when they open and verify this, but I think I can swap liners, pistons and rings, and keep the same head with new valves if needed (will be tearing into it today to see) and load a Sprint map to the ECU and be set. I believe there may be changes in cam profile and duration, but without the dealers help that's conjecture at this point.
I'll be posting pictures as I get into the engine proper; stay tuned...
If you load the sprint map into a tiger you will find it won't run any sense and the instruments will not function as the sprint clocks are different. If you end up with a sprint top end then only the ignition and fuel maps should be copied over to the tiger map. This can be achieved via TuneECU F Trim and I trim.
If you go the rebuild route then best to strip the lump and see what the damage is and decide on a way forward pending parts required as a second hand 955 engine and ancilliaries may work out cheaper.
If 955 pistons and liners are fitted to the 855, the bore on the 855 is 76mm while the 955 is 79mm although the stroke is the same so the 955 head would have to be fitted in conjuction with the pistons.
Depending on the age of 955, the later ones used 1050 cases whereas the early ones were similar to 855.
The early cases did suffer weaknesses including cracks in the cylinder head and weeping head to crankcase sealing. The breather system created its own faults.
Quote from: "metalguru"Quote from: "blume"Quote from: "metalguru"Cylinder head is different with bigger valves on 955 so if top end is mashed then way to go. Engine swap is probably cheaper easier and quicker.
Been there and done it many times.
is there an online parts breakdown for the triumph line that is respected?
I have the Clymer manual and there is no mention of different valves for the 955/885, but it does break down different compression ratio, HP, Torque, etc for the 955i in the Sprint; I will talk to the dealer and parts man tomorrow when they open and verify this, but I think I can swap liners, pistons and rings, and keep the same head with new valves if needed (will be tearing into it today to see) and load a Sprint map to the ECU and be set. I believe there may be changes in cam profile and duration, but without the dealers help that's conjecture at this point.
I'll be posting pictures as I get into the engine proper; stay tuned...
If you load the sprint map into a tiger you will find it won't run any sense and the instruments will not function as the sprint clocks are different. If you end up with a sprint top end then only the ignition and fuel maps should be copied over to the tiger map. This can be achieved via TuneECU F Trim and I trim.
If you go the rebuild route then best to strip the lump and see what the damage is and decide on a way forward pending parts required as a second hand 955 engine and ancilliaries may work out cheaper.
If 955 pistons and liners are fitted to the 855, the bore on the 855 is 76mm while the 955 is 79mm although the stroke is the same so the 955 head would have to be fitted in conjuction with the pistons.
Depending on the age of 955, the later ones used 1050 cases whereas the early ones were similar to 855.
The early cases did suffer weaknesses including cracks in the cylinder head and weeping head to crankcase sealing. The breather system created its own faults.
outstanding info; thanks very much!
I was not thinking of swapping the head, but DUH; different bore would require it even if the same valves are used (doubtful)
I have the valve cover and right side cover off- the timing chain had skipped a tooth on the crank end, and I had enough time to re-index that last night but need to roll it through and verify.
I will be borrowing a bore-scope to get a look inside the cylinder and at the valves- big question for the day: Is this an interference engine? If so how many degrees or teeth off can the cams/crank be rotated and not cause damage? The book calls for the engine to be rotated several times to verify timing, I'm optimistic at this point that there was no damage done.
more later 8)
Nice pics,
1 tooth on the crank would equate 1/2 tooth on the cams so in theory it should not interfere.
I have seen many 885s with this variation in timing, how many miles has yours done and was the chain drive side taught when you took the picture as the crank can move back when switched off. This was a common problem on the older 855 engines that used to atomise the sprag drive eventually.
I had an 885 in the w/shop where the cam chain tensioner had been removed and replaced allowing the timing to move 2 teeth on the crank with no ill effect, only the fact it would not run!
Best to check out the cam chain tensioner blades as these can self destruct and give the symptoms you describe, also the tensioner unit ratchet teeth havn't gone blunt.
nothing will hit being off one or two teeth on the timing chain ......but if it jumped a tooth then you need to be paying some attention to the cam chain tensioner, and chain itself , cuz that shouldn't have happened .
Quote from: "metalguru"Nice pics,
1 tooth on the crank would equate 1/2 tooth on the cams so in theory it should not interfere.
I have seen many 885s with this variation in timing, how many miles has yours done and was the chain drive side taught when you took the picture as the crank can move back when switched off. This was a common problem on the older 855 engines that used to atomise the sprag drive eventually.
I had an 885 in the w/shop where the cam chain tensioner had been removed and replaced allowing the timing to move 2 teeth on the crank with no ill effect, only the fact it would not run!
Best to check out the cam chain tensioner blades as these can self destruct and give the symptoms you describe, also the tensioner unit ratchet teeth havn't gone blunt.
62K+ miles, dealer recommends a new chain, I'll do that and the tensioner and blades while I'm at it. This is an early engine; S/N- 84609, I'll look around for the sprag issue too.
I took the picture after I had rolled the engine over by hand- the chain was taut, but after I timed it last night I see an air gap between the cam gear teeth and chain, as if the chain is stretched way past limits, I'll be checking that also tonight before I do a leak-down check; no sense getting hasty and changing the chain and blades if the valves have been hit. Here's to hoping they are fine, although I found a half dozen 955 engines on Ebay with a quick look this morning; I may be doing a full swap if the "fix" costs start penciling out closer to buy-in on a complete engine.
good to have a source of informed and informative people here; thanks again!
Quote from: "blume"................... although I found a half dozen 955 engines on Ebay with a quick look this morning.........................
Take care, lots of supposed Tiger 955 Engines out there which have come from Sprints, Daytonas etc, they may fit, but they aint the same, the early Sprint/ Daytona 955 is more like the 885 engine in design, just saying, I spotted a bloke selling a Tiger 955 "Rear" subframe recently, thats clever I thought, they dont have one :lol:
Sorry to mislead you on the 'early engines' what I refer to are the engine series before yours commonly known as Steamers, these had the troublesome sprags on the really early ones.
Mileage is not excessive for one of these so give it a compresson check, it is common to see daylight under the chain as it is of the Hyvo type which sits differently to a single row. The chain does look kinda shiny but nothing out of the ordinary that would cause a fatal stop. Did you notice if the oil lamp came on just before it stopped?
Quote from: "Timbox2"Quote from: "blume"................... although I found a half dozen 955 engines on Ebay with a quick look this morning.........................
Take care, lots of supposed Tiger 955 Engines out there which have come from Sprints, Daytonas etc, they may fit, but they aint the same, the early Sprint/ Daytona 955 is more like the 885 engine in design, just saying, I spotted a bloke selling a Tiger 955 "Rear" subframe recently, thats clever I thought, they dont have one :lol:
+1 saw that aswell DOH
Quote from: "metalguru"Sorry to mislead you on the 'early engines' what I refer to are the engine series before yours commonly known as Steamers, these had the troublesome sprags on the really early ones.
Mileage is not excessive for one of these so give it a compresson check, it is common to see daylight under the chain as it is of the Hyvo type which sits differently to a single row. The chain does look kinda shiny but nothing out of the ordinary that would cause a fatal stop. Did you notice if the oil lamp came on just before it stopped?
Also great information^^ :thumbsup
no oil light prior to the engine out, bulb does light though. I'm off to the parts house to get a leak-down tester, ditching work early to prioritize my motorcycle/work/life balance.
Great to see priorities are the correct way round....Well done.
leak-down test complete; valves seal and hold pressure, on TDC compression using 45psi all 3 cylinders hold 40psi- the rings (dry) are leaking by according to my calibrated ear, but the valves are not pranged!
So, to build or not to build? At this point I'm wanting to just ride the thing, I'm tempted to just push the tensioner in another click per my dealer's recommendation and sync the throttles, button her up and ride. I'll order the chain and tensioner and slippers and gaskets and clutch friction plates and do all that this winter when I'm not so distracted by good weather and open roads, my baby just needs a good romp... :wink:
As long as you are covinced it was the tensioner at fault and not something else that has rattled loose and caused a stop, then fair play just ride, I know the feeling.
I would rather be convinced that I had diagnosed the fault to completion and rectified offending part, for at least your own peace of mind and safety, let alone cutting short your roadporn.
I was able to run it last night but the rattle on engine deceleration has me worried; need a second opinion of the sound.
Chain slap? starter gear/idler fragged? can't pinpoint the source of the sound and it was around midnight, so I was less than sharp- opted for the "sleep on it" and tackle again when fresh option.
:?
Wouldn't happen to be the chain guide worn out on the swing arm would it?
Supposed to be changed on service but it is normal practice to leave them till they wear out and make a rattling noise on decel as the tiger chain has a lot of slack due to the long suspension travel.
Just a thought, as it does make a racket and can be felt through the footrests which can make you think the engine just decomposed.
not moving deceleration, engine decel. Took it by the shop, both the service man and manager think it's highly strange, suggest further investigation as the noise does not follow any rev profile, and comes and goes as if there were loose parts inside- it does not sound like chain slap, rod knock, or anything they have experienced- I'll be pulling the sump and looking inside for loose parts next; removing the engine is next on the list I think....
to be continued; I need a ride break though so I'm off for a couple days on the KLR to sort my brain again.
here's a shot of the last ride I took on the Girly for inspiration; three years ago mid May
See the pipe guard has dropped off,mine did in the South of France,I got a new set on a recall,all many years ago.
pan/sump access is off and I find large bronze shavings, also the engine will not roll over on a wrench (plugs out, cam chain timed correctly..)
:(
looks like the girl is a bit frigid, I'll be pulling the engine so I can further investigate tonight, new lights put up in the garage last night and organized and built a second work bench.
took a holiday with my KLR- 633 miles and 6 days on the road, camping, couch surfing, drinking and smoking with good mates; nice way to start a summer.
to be continued....
engine out, found a motorcycle work stand I may need to buy; roll on, hydraulic and air, wheel clamp etc. better than the balancing act I have now with my jack-stands and luck.
next item on the agenda is a proper engine stand- I'll use my welding table for starters.
no visual indications of valve/piston interference, backing up the leak-down test from a couple weeks ago; onward and inward to the bearings and rings.
to be continued....
Do you have parkinsons or a really bad camera?
:lol:
pull the clutch hub and then see if the engine will turn over ...........bronze debris in the oil could well be a sign that something in the gearbox is amiss
Quote from: "CoolHandLuke"Do you have parkinsons or a really bad camera?
:lol:
blackberry :roll:
Thanks Mustang, I'll check that; the trans will shift through the gears and neutral, but the engine would not roll in neutral or otherwise. Is there a constant mesh that neutral or clutch disengaged would not allow the engine to turn if the trans were frag'd?
I'm looking at around $850USD for the needed parts just to rebuild for best case scenario: bearings, gaskets, rings, and cam drive components. 955 liners and pistons doubles that, and I'd guess a good used 955 head and other ancillary bits would triple it fairly quickly, so I think I should re-name this post "rebuilding on a shoestring" or "Money no object re-power!"
I'll decide that when I see the bearings and pistons out- if the liners and pistons are badly scored and need replaced it only makes sense (not cents) to go bigger- if I have case damage from a spun bearing and shell or chewed reciprocating parts I may need to extend my budget and go full tilt, turning the crank and honing the existing liners is easy and fairly inexpensive, so if I can get away with doing a stock rebuild I think that makes the best cents (and dollars)
now a damaged transmission on the other hand.... :? had not thought of that as a possibility.
to be continued.
#2 had a spun bearing, the rest looks good but I have a couple bolts that need replaced from the bottom side case/main bearing half, and 3 T40 bits- those suckers are in there with a bunch of red lock-tite and also sealant, took a bit of brute strength and persistence and expletives and I had to drill the head off one... :BangHead
the sleeves slid out on their own and look dry, I had no issues prior with cross contamination so I think a re-seal and rings, con-rod bearings and some bolts and a #2 piston/rod I'm back in biz.
stay tuned for the bargain build, I think it's back to stock for the price/fun equation: I need to ride the girl or go bonkers and buy a new/used roadie for my long mile rides.
so here's a picture- sorry for the crap mobile quality and size; I like wrenches more than gadgets.
955i from a '00 Sprint, 8 thousand miles, with harness and ECU and header for $700....
What a bargain, well done , will save a whole shed load of money and work. :thumbsup
so far the 955 has been easy; I have fastened the engine to the bike and begun landing wiring terminals where they are common to the 885; from the engine back the loom is the same or similar enough that a bit of stretching and relocating the ECU will be all that is required, but the instruments are another story; I may need to remove individual pins and orient them differently, or cut and solder the old plugs to the new loom- still working on that bit.
So the plugs are common for most of the bike, save the instruments- turns out the Sprint 955 I found was a Sprint RS with the digital display for everything but the analog tach- I'll need to source a head unit if I want to see my warning lights and speed and ODO etc I think, the tiger tach may work if I pull those wires out of the plug individually, but I prefer 'plug-n-play' if I can swing it.
off to the interweb for RS instruments... :wink:
the Sprint shift linkage was set up for bell-cranks and as a result I'll need to change internals on the shifter drum or learn to shift upside down; thoughts?
Had the same on my old steamer with a Trident engine in it and it took about 5 minutes of town riding to get used to the 'gp' shift. Found it easier in the end than conventional as just used to lightly put my foot on the shifter and dab the clutch for a quick shift.
I like the sound of "GP Shift", and as it's in the final phases of completion I think I'll ride it for a bit before I dive in again.
Yesterday was productive; minus the instruments, (UPS delivering today) the swap is done! I had to mod the inner fender for the ECU due to a shorter harness section through there, basically I cut down the raised plastic posts for the old fuse box and patched them, stuffed all the relays and the ECU and the fuse box in it's place and put the rest of the bike back in order.
Big question now is: Without an instrument cluster would this bike not start? I tried a handful of times and it turns over well, the fuel pump whines and the relays click and everything, but no spark apparently. I'll try again this afternoon after Big Brown arrives, and update and add some pictures.
Havn't attepted this swap myself but did go through the therories as obviously you have. Would be interesting to combine the best of both intsruments to give a really comprehensive dash. By the way the cast wheel Girly has a electronic speedo if it helps. The silver engine looks a treat. Well done and good luck.
:?
frustrated!
so all has gone swimmingly, everything plugs right in with minimal mods to ancillary harness ends for differing position (fuel pump, road speed) but still no joy!
I have determined it is not squirting fuel; injector rail pulled with injectors aimed at throttle bodies proves this out. All injectors were removed from the Tiger which ran a month ago, they click when given 12VDC, the harness from them is continuous both to the ECU fuse and battery and the switched side in the ECU plugs.
I have fat blue snapping spark, I have air :roll: and I have fresh gas in the tank, the fuel pump whines with the key on, and pressures up the rail but I believe the ECU is not firing the right synapses to open the injectors, so I have this Question:
WTF??
does an ECU need refreshed after being idle several years? or is the thing cooked in this particular node of it's wee lil' brain?
I'm assuming the injectors are driven by the same signal the plugs are fired from, so I believe the crank position sensor is functional, and I am assuming the fuel pressure is adequate, however, I do not have a verified number of psi, which I'll find tonight.
I also have a friend down the road with an'00 Tiger with the same brain and I'm getting ready to harangue him or bribe with spirits to use his as trouble shooting kit.
Wish me luck, I want to ride this Tiger RS like nobody's business.
:iagree
Hey blume !! have ya checked, kill switch, clutch switch and side stand switch ??
just a thought !!
KK
had an ahah moment last night after testing the fuel pressure and regulator; the pump will run for one second with the key and then shut off, it has no sensor for pressure that I can think of so it only bumps a small bit of fuel into the rail; I think I need to prime the system before i trailer it to the dealer.
so I'm having a tasty breakfast on the way over to fill the gas can, and "working" from home today,
cross your fingers lads 8)
well, with a direct power supply to the fuel pump the RS Tiger runs and rides like a champ; however, the ECU should switch the power on and leave it on.
and the lights are not working, so I may have a partial ECU meltdown?
but! I rode it today for the first time since it seized last month, and it is a ripper- 955 is a healthy bump, and the extra power, RPM, and torques make a really neat bike!
Quote from: "blume"had an ahah moment last night after testing the fuel pressure and regulator; the pump will run for one second with the key and then shut off,
That sounds right to me. According to the workshop manual, "the pump runs continuously when the engine is running and also is run briefly when the ignition is switched on......"
That's exactly what my 04 model does.