Sagem (S1000T3)... Mysterious ECU.

[Danny955i]

Why, do all TuneECU/TuneBoy maps have the option "up to 206546" or "from 206547 (Sagem MC2000 ECU)" Vin option, when my Vin is in the 135xxx area and my bike has a Sagem ECU??

Here's why...

I found that the unit I have is  S1000T3  Sagem ECU.... the same ECU used in 90% of Triumph motorcycles from 1999 to 2004...

So, why can't I run Speed Triple and Daytona 955i maps in my bike?

List of bikes with same ECU:
Speed Triples and Sprint st/rs used them from 1999 to 2004
Tiger 955i's used them from 1999 to 2004
Daytona 955i's used them from 1999 to 2002


So my guess here is that as long as you pick the EARLY vin number... (anything that doesn't say Keihin or Sagem MC2000) you can use that map in the Tiger 955i IF it has the S1000T3 Ecu in it.

Does this logic make sense?

My only concern is that after close inspection of some Daytona maps... there are some variables that are not present in the TuneECU map for the Tiger...

Such as:
Daytona 955i from VIN 132513 has this under Parameters:
(Map 10178Map.hex stock map...)
Rev Limit(rpm) : 10800
Thermo Fan (C): 103
Injector Flow: 350
Target Idle A/F: 14.5

This makes me believe it has the MC2000 due to the Target Idle.


Tiger 955i from VIN 124106 to 206546 (my bike) has:
(Map 10120Map.hex stock map...)
Rev Limit (rpm): 9550
Thermo Fan (C): 103
Injector Flow: 285.8

However... higher VIN Tiger maps (206547 and UP) do NOT have the Target Idle A/F: in their parameters... which makes me believe it's SAFE to run these maps in the lower vin ECU...

Now... Lastly...

I KNOW.. for a FACT... the 2001-2004 Sprint ST/RS has the SAME motor/ECU as the Tiger 955i pre-206547 vin...

SO... I looked up the parameters for the map 10078Map.hex (stock map for that year Sprint vins 089737 to 139276)...

What do you know...

SAME parameters as the Tiger 955i... AND there are custom tunes available...

SO... Here's what I'm going to do.

10120Map.hex is the STOCK Tiger 955i map for my vin.
10173Map.hex is the one I'm running, but it's for the MC2000 Tiger.

The map I found... using the Sprint ST/RS base stock map of 10078Map.hex (found on TuneECU.com)... is called:

RS_ST_tune_by_Wayne_Mcdonald.hex

This means... the guy who created TuneBoy made the map using PC3 and a Dyno... so... Considering the parameters are the same, and both bikes have the same motor and ECU... I think this will be a good try.

The Parameters are as follows:
Rev Limit: 9600 (tiger was 9550)
Thermo Fan: 100 (tiger was 103)
Injector Flow: 285.8 (identical to tiger)

Here's the MapInfo:

Sprint ST/RS from VIN 089737 to 139276
Aftermarket exhaust
18 Aug 2004, This map was modified on a DynoJet 250 dyno
using the TuningLink connected to the TuneEdit program.
PCIII (fuel) trim created on bike with K&N filter and Triumph aftermarket pipe. Makes a huge
difference all over the rev-range. Note that this tune is just Dave Sillence's 9890 based fueltrim
applied to the 10078 base tune. 9890 and 10078 are identical except for some minute differences
in the x and y axis of the different maps. The end result is the same ;-)

... Which means... it'll fit my needs running a aftermarket pipe and k&n... and also be a better starting point than trying to use my "butt" Dyno to tune.

We'll see. I'll let you know how it goes.

I'm going to start with this first and then see about Speed Triples...

It looks as though MC1000 and MC2000 Sagem ECU's BOTH list the A/F Idle Parameter... so... chances are, if you download a map to your Tiger and it has the A/F Idle parameter... it's NOT a good idea...

That, and even though the higher Vin's of Tiger 955i use different maps... I've run the 10173Map.hex (high vin stock map) in my 955i with NO issues... but then again... this map does NOT display the A/F at idle parameter...

Your guess is as good as mine...

My 3 options:

1. Run the correct vin 10121Map.hex (TOR tune) FOR the Tiger and leave it.
 
2. Run the Sprint map and say hell to the consequences.

3. Copy certain variables from the Sprint map to the 10121 map to gain the same affect without running the wrong map...

But.. in option 3... simply changing 10121 to match the sprint map, simply makes it the Sprint map, no?

Discuss.

[Bixxer Bob]

Danny,  I put a spare Sagem 1000 in my Tiger that had a Daytona map in it, it ran, but badly.  The Daytona has different cams.  That's where it gets most of it's extra 40 bhp from.

The dealer put a Speed Triple map in mine and it ran badly, including the rev counter reading 4000 rpm with the engine off.  The reason the ST tune wasn't compatible, even though it has the same parameters, is that the Tune is made up of 2 parts, the maps, and the base software.  The base software for the ST is different to the Tiger.

Hope that helps....

I'll go over your logic more thouroughly later, got to go to work in a few minutes...

[Danny955i]

Well... I didn't do anything crazy...

Re-loaded the 10121Map.hex and just went with it... seems to run just fine. A little gurggly...


Like, holding at 3k, 4k, 5k, 6k... there's little pops and bubbles not really smooth...

We'll see once I get the new fuel pump in.

I figure I'll pull cues from the other maps and just make minor adjustments to smooth things out. BUT, I'm going to base all tunes off of this 10121Map.hex rather than trying the Daytona or Sprint....

You're right... after looking up parts lists and finding all I can... cams are all different. From Daytona, to speed, to sprint, to tiger. Probably will run fine... but I don't want to screw with the timing and detonate the motor or burn a hole in my pistons.

[Timbox2]

This is my take on this, and Chris (Winger) points to this in what he has said.

Firstly, according to Lings online parts fiche, the cast wheel girly came in on VIN 198875. So the change point according to Tune ECU was only on cast wheel models.

The change point does not correspond to anything on the bike changing.


The part no for an ECU is the same for any 955 Engine Tiger, period.

As Chris has hinted at, if you go to a main dealer, they will have 1 map for std and 1 for TOR pipe irrespective of VIN and I think you will find that is the 10172 or 10173 map.


GET OUT CLAUSE:  I could be totally wrong :D

[Chris Canning]

What is never discussed is long term,what feels great round the block or 50 miles down the road,can drive you nuts over a serious distance,I had a map installed before winter set in,the bike has been in bits ever since,but when I road it home the motor felt really good but I've been this route before,I'll reserve judgement till I've ridden it a distance.

It is on another thread on here,but when I had that map installed the guy went out of his way to tell me it only arrived from Triumph on the mail a couple of days before???

[Bixxer Bob]

Chris, you'e right, a new tuen came out in November, the new Triumph tune is now out on TunECU but I've not had a chance yet to see what they've down with it, or tried it out.  I will do, first chance I get.

[Chris Canning]

Bob

I had a lengthy chat with Tim(box) about it a while back,having been burned before,when I rode a bike round the block and thought it was great and by the time I'd got to ferry it had driven me nuts,this new tune I had put in was very favourable  :D  I have to say,what I'm taken aback at is the fact their(Triumph) still buggering about with tunes on the old 955??

Oh yea,cost me 16 quid.

[Bixxer Bob]

I remember what it was like before Tuneboy and Tune ECU having to trust the stealer.  You might want to think about taking the plunge chris,  £16 will more than buy you a cable and the rest is free.

And it's really, really easy.  If you're curious PM me and I'll have a run over one afternoon with my gear.

[Chris Canning]

Hi Bob

I'm curious,but from a morbid kind of way,particularly abroad my idea of riding my Tiger doesn't tally with many others that I have met,come to think of it apart from a French guy a few years on  an 1150 GS,non,and hence I'd be interested to tinker,but not with mine as from time to time I've operated on the outer limits,and getting the enthe degree at the risk of burning the motor,is just to risky,thats not to say I don't take an interest because I do.

And my actual words to Tim after I had the new map put,'Felt like it had another 20hp',but of course you could trade that off against what was in  :oops:

Hence why at some time a.n.other will propose a meet up,sat/sunday mid day were we can shoot the technical shit,I've no interest camping,chatting the girlies up(I've got my own!!) and even less so riding with people I don't know,I did it once before(never again).

But thanks for the offer,I am interested,and we can kill two birds with one stone.

Jacks cafe on the A5?

[Danny955i]

Wow... we got off course here.

Back to the aforementioned issue... when I brought my Tiger into the dealer for the TOR flash, I read it with TuneECU a year later... the map they installed was 10173Map.hex...

The main difference I see between the 'spoke' tune (10121Map.hex) and the 'cast' tune (10173Map.hex) (BOTH TOR mind you...) is that the 10173Map.hex has a different "F" map (slightly richer) and a different AF/1 map (10121map.hex runs 11.0 A/F from 100% load and 0 RPM... I think to help eliminate popping on over-run).

However, there is nothing different in either ignition map, what-so-ever. Which leads me to believe... identical internals of the motor.

------

On a side note.... Running around the past couple days I've noticed the bike runs quite horrid under 3k rpm... This happened a lot last year as I was complaining about excessive popping, shotty running, wandering idle, and all-in-all poor running in the low RPM band...

I've been fooling and fiddling with TuneECU, but I think I may have the answer... I really, in all honesty.... believe it's my TPS.

When I plug the bike into TuneECU, as it runs, the idle is set to be at 1250 rpm over 90 degrees... however it always wanders between 1050 and 1230, never staying steady and never hitting 1250....

If I go to the AF/1 map, the highlighted box jumps around a lot 2 to 3 boxes up and down.

This is pretty much a tell-tale sign something is a miss right?

I rode a Sprint 1050 and a Speed Triple 1050 and NEITHER of them rode as shotty as mine does... and BOTH had the smoothest idle ever.

Bum TPS... it's on order.

[Timbox2]

You may be right Danny, but this is what I was saying, 10173 tune is the updated Tune for all 955 Tigers as far as Triumph are concerned.

If you can believe the Haynes manual the MC2000 ECM was only used on 885 Tigers and early Daytonas, Speed Triples and Sprint ST.
Later Sprints,Daytonas, Speed Triples and all Sprint RS and Tiger 955 all use the MC1000 ECM.
This appears to coincide with when the engines went from the crank sensor being on the right ( Clutch Side), to being on the left(Generator Side), and thinking about it when they went from external to internal generator.

Now, you may have a dodgy TPS, but I also had very similar running issues to you and I eventually loaded the custom map on Tune ECU from SA_Rider, called 10173AFMod2 and have been more than happy since. Saying that, there are still some days when it runs better than others, and this is I think the biggest issue with the Sagem system, It doesnt adjust itself too well to differing atmospheric conditions, hence why the 12min Tune every now and then does as much as anything else.

An ex Triumph Mechanic did also tell me that when he was at Triumph they had alot of Sagem equipped bikes that ran very rough idling when they had K&N filters, and switching back to OE also helped, its a subject with lots of conjecture as I recently saw some research on the net where a guy was saying that in his opinion actual airflow between filters was negligable, but that he would never fit a K&N as they let too much crap into the engine, it was a bit too techy for me, and this will probably start a war.

Im only the messenger dont shoot me :lol:

[Danny955i]

I've run the 10173AFMod2.hex and it does work well... that one was probably better than the 10173, however I got HORRIBLE gas mileage.

I thought about re-fitting the OEM filter as well... I also read about the KnN filter "too much crap through" post either here or on TriumphRat.

Who knows... I figure it's one, or all... Might as well just do it all and hope for the best.

[Timbox2]

I've run the 10173AFMod2.hex and it does work well... that one was probably better than the 10173, however I got HORRIBLE gas mileage.

I thought about re-fitting the OEM filter as well... I also read about the KnN filter "too much crap through" post either here or on TriumphRat.

Who knows... I figure it's one, or all... Might as well just do it all and hope for the best.

Thats what Ive done mate, as for mileage, ummm, maybe a bit, Im now getting the low light at 170ish miles, before, yes maybe 180ish, still around the mid 40MPG, and Im ragging it with full luggage rarely below 90/95

[Chris Canning]

I rode a Sprint 1050 and a Speed Triple 1050 and NEITHER of them rode as shotty as mine does... and BOTH had the smoothest idle ever.

Thats a pretty strange post!!,the 1050 has Jap fuel injection not the Sagem system,thats why it's different!!.

What I'm suprised at is the fact there are clearly still upgrades with Sagem,they've only been doing it since 99  :roll:

And re the maps,the leaner they are,the crisper they run,the more they drive nuts you with the vibration at high speed.

[Bixxer Bob]

And re the maps,the leaner they are,the crisper they run,the more they drive nuts you with the vibration at high speed.

Same as Mark Brewin at BSD Tuning said when he put the Power Commander on my 'Bird.  Mr Honda sets them real rich as it keeps them quiet and smooth.  He unleashed 6 bhp with the PC and yes, it is a bit harsher as well.  Still as smooth as butter compared with everything else though... :roll: