The only thing to make the Girly better...

[JTT]

In the days before rising rate suspension or should I say linkages and suspension ie early motocossers because of the various tensions that the chain would have to go to it would have to be set at it's most slack(like Dan is having to do) the problem being that chains came off,that was combated with a chain tensioner common even up to the late eighties.

What folks are missing Triumph built the Tiger less than 10 years from when the company started,Triumph have a history of copying others it's a safe route,you could argue that even with the latest 1300 they did the same,modern suspension has moved on and so have Triumph.

Not missing this point at all Chris, just saying it has nothing to do with chain tension.  Until someone designs a telescopic swingarm, this will never change.  Actually back in the early 80's (I believe) there was a mechanical engineer who designed a pair of fixed little sprockets that mounted above and below the swingarm pivot that was supposed to help with tension and more importantly chain torque effect on the rear wheel, but can't remember the name.

Modern solution to chain tensioners:


Without these, modern MXers would have the same issues as the old ones
Bottom line is as iansoady has said, there are only a couple of things that effect chain tension.  Take the line drawing in the previous post and mount the shock in any manner you want, Tiger style, linkage, mounted midway up swingarm  or at the rear axle like on vintage stuff....no matter how you mount the distance "A" doesn't change.  That's all I'm saying.  I'm definitely not arguing the benefits of non-linkage suspension systems.

[Chris Canning]

Sorry we'll have to agree to disagree!!,it's all about chain tension and absolutely nothing else hence why Dan has the original problem,you set a Tiger(885i/955) chain set up for one up it's like a banjo string two up,if Dan goes and buys a modern bike he won't have the problem the shock will still struggle but he sure as hell won't be checking chain tension depending on the weight on the bike.

This is the bike I ride most of all I wouldn't dream of having to check the chain tension with a passenger as it's rising rate,it's the same no matter what,no chain guide or tensioner.

[Bixxer Bob]

Deep breath, here we go....... JTT's right Chris. No matter where it's mounted or how the shock linkage works, the fundamental length of the swinging arm doesn't change. The ONLY thing to affect the actual tightening or slackening of the chain as the swing arm moves is the position of the output sprocket on the gearbox in relation to the swing arm pivot.

If the front sprocket is in line with the swing arm pivot and the rear sprocket then the chain will be at its tightest then, with a bit of slack at full compression or full extension.

If the front sprocket is above the line between the pivot and the rear sprocket it will be at it's slackest at full compression and tightest at full extension.

If the front sprocket is below the line then the reverse is true.

I'll get me coat........ :lol:

[Chris Canning]

So are you confirming that the 955 is a F up that you don't encounter on any other modern bike  

[NKL]

Sorry Chris you are wrong and you still get the same thing on any modern bike with long travel suspension and chain drive. Whether a suspension has a linkage or not has nothing to do with chain tension, chain tension will vary with rear wheel movement, and the amount it varies will depend on 1) amount of travel and 2) distance between front sprocket centre and swing arm pivot centre or a combination of both.
In the 80's Spondon came up with a frame that had outriggers for the swing arm so it pivoted at the gearbox output shaft, therefore the tension did not change, we could also get into anti squat geometry but that's another can of worms, ask early ZX9 owners.

[Chris Canning]

So why don't you have the same hassle with a Multistrada,my XT660 has heaps of travel and I don't get the problem on there either 1 up 2 up chain tension remains the same, I had two Africa Twins before my first Tiger and that didn't need any ajustment either,so why's that then??,and of course why doesn't anyone else copy the 885'/995 system or more to the point why did Triumph abandon it  

I take my hat to you boys,KTM fought absolute tooth and nail to keep the direct link to the swingarm and were forced by their biggest market to change.

Just to remind you gents,this about Dans problem with weight and excess slack in his chain,a Tiger set up chain tension wise 1 up is unrideable 2 uo,well it is so long as you can stand the vibes or untill the out shaft bearing crys enough.

[Ironhorse]

I think we all agree that Triumph could have been done better. I really like the new Husky's swingarm pivot at the countershaft sprocket. That is ideal, but expensive and rather difficult to change gearing.

What I think I am hearing from Chris, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that he understands that the chain could get too tight but he won't ever get there as a single rider. So he adjusts the chain when he does two-up. Of course the problem arises when, as a single rider, he encounters a large obstacle or depression and it does require a complete travel cycle. At that point damage will incur.

I went to the trouble to line the 3 axes up and gave it a tight adjustment. I then cut a small stick of wood that would tightly fit between the bottom of the swingarm and the chain while on the centerstand. I keep this stick under the seat for future checks. It takes the confusion out of the system.

Joe

[Mustang]

Basic info from one of the best about chains

http://www.motorcycle.com/products/all- ... -3524.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/products/all-about-chains-3524.html)

The best way to check chain tension, the one used by many race teams, is too ask two of your biggest friends to sit on the bike and compress the rear suspension to the point where the wheel spindle, swing-arm bearing bolt and the front chain-sprocket centerline are all in line. That is the point of maximum chain tension. Or you can compress the bike's rear end with a ratcheting tie down. Free up and down movement at the middle of the chain's bottom run should be about half an inch (13 mm) with the suspension compressed.

and it does need to be set this way especially if the bike suspension always has enough load and or movement to go to or past the the point of the straight line axis of the three points
it is quite simple geometry really . it aint rocket science ,it's chain adjustment 101

 

[JTT]

Nice ride!  They'd throw me in jail within days  :lol:

One thing we are in full agreement on is that linkage suspension systems ARE the deal

[Chris Canning]

As I explained to Sin Tiger(Nial) tonight I've had more fun on that than any other bike I've ever owned,and I'll either get locked up or fall off it one or the other.

[Bixxer Bob]

So why don't you have the same hassle with a Multistrada,my XT660 has heaps of travel and I don't get the problem on there either 1 up 2 up chain tension remains the same, I had two Africa Twins before my first Tiger and that didn't need any ajustment either,so why's that then ???

Chris, we're talking at cross purposes. Rising rate linkage is the dogs, no doubt about it. And Triumph's  direct link is neolithic, we are all agreed on that.  But rising rate is not the reason why the Stroodle chain tension is hardly affected by suspension movement, its because the front sprocket, swing arm pivot, rear sprocket alignment is near perfect.Like Mustang says its not rocket science, just simple maths. The rest is just a misunderstanding.  

[NKL]

Basic info from one of the best about chains

http://www.motorcycle.com/products/all- ... -3524.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/products/all-about-chains-3524.html)

The best way to check chain tension, the one used by many race teams, is too ask two of your biggest friends to sit on the bike and compress the rear suspension to the point where the wheel spindle, swing-arm bearing bolt and the front chain-sprocket centerline are all in line. That is the point of maximum chain tension. Or you can compress the bike's rear end with a ratcheting tie down. Free up and down movement at the middle of the chain's bottom run should be about half an inch (13 mm) with the suspension compressed.

and it does need to be set this way especially if the bike suspension always has enough load and or movement to go to or past the the point of the straight line axis of the three points
it is quite simple geometry really . it aint rocket science ,it's chain adjustment 101

 

Exactly, and it makes no difference whether you are 1 up 2up or whatever, or what suspension system you have, the only way you would want to adjust you chain between 1 up and 2 up is if you ran your suspension so hard solo it never compressed enough to get all three points in line. If there is a problem with the Tiger (and I don't think there is) you could argue that the swing arm pivot is too far away from the front sprocket or it should run rollers like motocross bikes.

And I disagree, there is nothing wrong with direct mounting of the shock, and also KTM have not changed the latest 990 Adventure or the Enduro models they still run direct and still out handles a lot of bikes, it is the shock that is important not the linkage.

[NZDeano]

Going back to curing or helping Dan's problem , would it be feasible or even possible to rig up an old style chain tensioner sytem on the tiger? :?:

[Ironhorse]

It is possible but one more thing to maintain.

[Chris Canning]

Basic info from one of the best about chains

http://www.motorcycle.com/products/all- ... -3524.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/products/all-about-chains-3524.html)

The best way to check chain tension, the one used by many race teams, is too ask two of your biggest friends to sit on the bike and compress the rear suspension to the point where the wheel spindle, swing-arm bearing bolt and the front chain-sprocket centerline are all in line. That is the point of maximum chain tension. Or you can compress the bike's rear end with a ratcheting tie down. Free up and down movement at the middle of the chain's bottom run should be about half an inch (13 mm) with the suspension compressed.

and it does need to be set this way especially if the bike suspension always has enough load and or movement to go to or past the the point of the straight line axis of the three points
it is quite simple geometry really . it aint rocket science ,it's chain adjustment 101

 

Exactly, and it makes no difference whether you are 1 up 2up or whatever, or what suspension system you have, the only way you would want to adjust you chain between 1 up and 2 up is if you ran your suspension so hard solo it never compressed enough to get all three points in line.

Thats completey at odds with Dans problem,it's the fact he has soft suspension and has so much movement and clearly the chain setting requirments are so drastic,my shock has minimal movement unless things are drastic hence why my chain setting between 1 and 2 isn't a problem.

Is their a problem with the 885i/955?? there has always been,how many postings over the years have we seen on here about chain setting and vibration because if you set the chain as per the book it's no good for two up.

If I ride mine one up I just leave it as is,although if it was any amount of time I'd change it,but Dans situation is at the extreme end,if he buys any other bike he won't have the same problem,the shock might struggle but there'll be no messing with chain tension,it's a crap design.