Charging system woes

[AndyM]

A couple of weeks ago my bike wouldn't start. It's an 03 Tiger with ~70k miles.

At that time I recharged the battery and rode to work. After about eight miles and fifteen minutes the voltage dropped down to 12.5-13.2 getting worse the more I rode.

Using the fault finding diagram from Electrosport,
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-r ... iagram.pdf
I determined that the stator had failed, 70vac on two legs and 10vac on the third. The regulator/rectifier tested good.

I ordered and installed a stator from Electrosport, installed it and headed for work. After about eight miles and fifteen minutes the voltage dropped down to 12.5-13.2 getting worse the more I rode.

I tested the stator and r/r and got good readings from both. Thinking that maybe I had fried the battery I bought a new one.

Charged it overnight, installed it and headed for work. After about eight miles and fifteen minutes the voltage dropped down to 12.5-13.2 getting worse the more I rode.

Tested the stator and r/r both cold and hot, got good readings from both. Called Tech support at Electrosport, again, and the tech said it was classic symptoms of a bad solder joint in the r/r and that it was failing as it heated up.

I order a new r/r from Electrosport, installed it and headed for work, (want to guess where this is heading?)
After about eight miles and fifteen minutes the voltage dropped down to 12.5-13.2 getting worse the more I rode. :bash :bash :bash

So in the past week I've replaced the battery, stator, and regulator, and when stone cold I get 14.5 volts and as it warms up it drops to the mid 12's.
The stator and r/r test good.
All the fuses test good.
I replaced all the fuses.
I've cleaned and tightened all the connections.
I pulled the fuses for my extra goodies.
I pulled the fuses for the headlights and fan.

Nothing makes a difference except that the volts drop as the bike warms up.
I'm using a calibrated Fluke 87 multimeter for all my testing.

Help.

[Robbie]

Early this year I was walking around (as you do) one of our motorist shops and in the bargain bucket was a voltmeter for a quid. It was one of the ones that you put in the cigarette lighter socket of a car but looked fit for modification to bike use.
It was kicked around the shed until the weekend before I was set to go to Shetland. While I prepped the bike for the trip I set it up just to add a farcle really, I haven't had any trouble with the electric system.
Start the bike 14.2V, put lights on 12.7, rev bike up 11.2!!!!!!
It was one of them S*** moments, boat booked, everything sorted and now a dying bike.
Did the tests with my cheepo meter and it all looked OK.
A quick trip to the bike doctors and it did the same on his quality meter.
Lucky they had a Honda 600 RR in stock that the book said fitted the tiger,
The connectors needed swaping over as they didn't match.
So it was fitted and ........
Yep 14.2V at tick over going down as I rev it.
I don't drive with the lights on (unless it is dark) and not had any probs
I don't know why it is doing what it is doing but at the moment I am chosing to ignore it and hoping all is OK,
For the last 4 weeks I have been using the bike for work, cold starts, lights on and my gerblings, all OK,

[mrazekan]

when stone cold I get 14.5 volts and as it warms up it drops to the mid 12's.
The stator and r/r test good.
All the fuses test good.
I replaced all the fuses.
I've cleaned and tightened all the connections.
I pulled the fuses for my extra goodies.
I pulled the fuses for the headlights and fan.

Nothing makes a difference except that the volts drop as the bike warms up.
I'm using a calibrated Fluke 87 multimeter for all my testing.

Help.

I am experiencing the EXACT same symptoms.  My RR and my stator both check out fine.  14.5V at the battery at 3k rpm when cold.  Voltage drops to 12 or lower after the bike warms up.  My bike only has 24k miles though.

I'm an mechanical engineer.  I have enough knowledge to understand how a charging system works and how to debug one though.  I was still quite stumped.  My friend who is an electrical engineer came by.  Between his 3 multimeters, 1 oscilloscope, and my calibrated fluke, we could not figure out what was going on with the charging system.

What we found is that it appears that the regulator is putting out the maximum current the charging system is rated for.  We just cannot find where the current is being consumed.  The bike must be consuming MORE current than the system is putting out.  This is what causes the voltage to drop.  

I'll describe in detail after we go through it again with a proper current probe.  But just in case, have YOU found anything?

[AndyM]

when stone cold I get 14.5 volts and as it warms up it drops to the mid 12's.
The stator and r/r test good.
All the fuses test good.
I replaced all the fuses.
I've cleaned and tightened all the connections.
I pulled the fuses for my extra goodies.
I pulled the fuses for the headlights and fan.

Nothing makes a difference except that the volts drop as the bike warms up.
I'm using a calibrated Fluke 87 multimeter for all my testing.

Help.

I am experiencing the EXACT same symptoms.  My RR and my stator both check out fine.  14.5V at the battery at 3k rpm when cold.  Voltage drops to 12 or lower after the bike warms up.  My bike only has 24k miles though.

I'm an mechanical engineer.  I have enough knowledge to understand how a charging system works and how to debug one though.  I was still quite stumped.  My friend who is an electrical engineer came by.  Between his 3 multimeters, 1 oscilloscope, and my calibrated fluke, we could not figure out what was going on with the charging system.

What we found is that it appears that the regulator is putting out the maximum current the charging system is rated for.  We just cannot find where the current is being consumed.  The bike must be consuming MORE current than the system is putting out.  This is what causes the voltage to drop.  

I'll describe in detail after we go through it again with a proper current probe.  But just in case, have YOU found anything?

The problems I described were after I had replaced the stator with one from Electrosport. (My stock stator had a shorted coil) I had also replaced the regulator two or three times without making a difference. I finally replaced the Esport stator with one from Rick's and the problem went away.

I sent the Esport stator back to Esport and they confirmed that it failed under load after it warmed up. I had tested the vac output of the Esport stator cold and hot and it appeared fine to me. I don't know what test they did to confirm it was bad but I do know that my bike has run fine for several thousand miles since replacing the Esport junk with a unit from Rick's.

[OzTiger007]

Stretch....the Mad scientist....is waging a personal war on the triumph charging dilema....battlefield coverage is here ;

http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5608 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5608)

[mrazekan]

I sent the Esport stator back to Esport and they confirmed that it failed under load after it warmed up. I had tested the vac output of the Esport stator cold and hot and it appeared fine to me. I don't know what test they did to confirm it was bad but I do know that my bike has run fine for several thousand miles since replacing the Esport junk with a unit from Rick's.

Andy,

Thanks so much for the update!  I just emailed them asking to know what test they ran.  But like you, I think I may just pony up for a rick's unit.  Looks like you didn't replace the RR along with the stator.  I know people have said replace both but If the stator tests out fine, and there is no problem with the charging system, I don't see a need to replace both units.


Oz,

I went over Stretch's post with a fine tooth comb!  I even looked at all of the links, and the other posts where they mention a voltmeter to monitor the system.  I still believe Andy and I have a different case than most other charging problems.  We both have done full testing of the RR and the stator and they both appear to be fine when the bike is cold and when warmed up.  The only measurable difference is that when cold, we see > 13V at the battery.  When warm, we see < 13V.  So this is kind of unique.  I think I just may end up going with a Rick's.  We both had the exact same problem and he fixed his by doing so.

Thanks for the heads up though.  I know tigers tend to be solitary animals

[AndyM]

I sent the Esport stator back to Esport and they confirmed that it failed under load after it warmed up. I had tested the vac output of the Esport stator cold and hot and it appeared fine to me. I don't know what test they did to confirm it was bad but I do know that my bike has run fine for several thousand miles since replacing the Esport junk with a unit from Rick's.

Andy,

Thanks so much for the update!  I just emailed them asking to know what test they ran.  But like you, I think I may just pony up for a rick's unit.  Looks like you didn't replace the RR along with the stator.  I know people have said replace both but If the stator tests out fine, and there is no problem with the charging system, I don't see a need to replace both units.


Oz,

I went over Stretch's post with a fine tooth comb!  I even looked at all of the links, and the other posts where they mention a voltmeter to monitor the system.  I still believe Andy and I have a different case than most other charging problems.  We both have done full testing of the RR and the stator and they both appear to be fine when the bike is cold and when warmed up.  The only measurable difference is that when cold, we see > 13V at the battery.  When warm, we see < 13V.  So this is kind of unique.  I think I just may end up going with a Rick's.  We both had the exact same problem and he fixed his by doing so.

Thanks for the heads up though.  I know tigers tend to be solitary animals

I had replaced the RR, twice, on Esport's recommendation after their stator didn't fix the problem. After they admitted they had sold me a defective stator I returned their RR's to them for a refund.

[Stretch]

Check all your connections first.  A crappy connection will behave fine when cold, but as current is passed through it, resistance in the connection will cause heat to build up.  As it gets warmer, the continuity of the connection gets worse.

German had this problem on his Tiger... the connection to the fuse panel was dirty and robbing a couple volts when it got hot, leaving him stranded a couple times on long rides...

http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5163 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,5163)

To eliminate doubt, cut off the push-on connectors and solder the wires together, and install a Sasquatch Voltage Fix between the Reglator and battery, bypassing the bike's wiring harness altogether.  

http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,3843 (http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/topic,3843)

Make sure your new fuse holder can handle 30 amps, and that it's fuse connectors make a tight, solid connection with the push-in ATC fuse.  I once had trouble with my Sasquatch Fix because the fuse holder wasn't robust enough, and the squishy connectors gave me a crappy connection at the fuse.

[mrazekan]

Thanks for the reply stretch.

All connections checked out good.  I used the electrosport debugging flowchart.  Everything checks out at both cold and warm engine temperatures.  The only difference is that at warm, I see <13 V across the battery.  

I have the sasquatch fix already in.  I'm running a 10gauge 10inch wire with a 30amp inline fuse.  The ground side has  a 16inch 10ga wire to the battery terminal.  I checked all of the voltage drops from the regulator to the battery.  The connections are good.  I also checked the lines coming out of the stator.  Again, all the wiring and connections are solid.  

I will be doing a current test next.  I'll be checking the output current of the RR, and the current draw of all the fused circuits.  The output current should be about equal to the draw.

I'm almost at the point where I'm just going to go Andy's route and get a ricks.  Just a few more current tests.

[Stretch]

A small break in the insulation inside a Stator winding isn't out of the question.  It will behave fine when cold, but start to leak current into another coil of wire as the part gets hot.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing rarely shows itself in bench or shop tests.

As you may have read in other posts, it would be in your best interest to replace both the Stator and Regulator / Rectifier at the same time.  A bad Stator can kill a R/R, and after you replace the Stator, the R/R has been spiked and is now questionable.

I went down that road myself last year, spending several hundred dollars on piecemeal part replacements as one bad part killed the other, and back-and-forth.

Rick's parts are quite inexpensive compared to Triumph factory parts, so why not?

[mrazekan]

I think I've figured it out...with the help of my EE friend of course.

Every single test run on the charging system has checked out.  The stator voltage and current outputs looked fine.  There are no shorts on the stator.  The RR diode tests checked out.  The only failure observed is <13V when warm and >13V when cold.  I went through and tested every circuit on the fuse block, no shorts found.

Finally one test provided the biggest clue as to what the problem might be.  At cold and at temperature, the power coming from the RR to the battery, and on to the electrical system, was ~175W (14.5A x 12V)  This is not enough to run the entire bike.  So the battery must make up the difference.

So today I decided to say screw it, I'm riding the Tiger to my electrical engineer friend's house.  I trickle charged the battery and was off.  Before I left though, I pulled the fuse on the tail light.  Just a hunch I say.

At idle (2k RPM), 14.5V on the meter.  Cruising down the highway on low beams and no heated grips, 14.5V.  When I would hit the blinker, drop in voltage into the 13s.  Back up to 14.5 shortly after resetting the turn indicators.  When I would hit the brakes, drop into the 13s.  If I stayed on the brakes, lets say coming to a complete stop at a light, the voltage would drop into the 12s.  Then after letting go of the brakes, the voltages would slowly ramp up to the 14.5 volts seen before.  Hmmm....

I get to my friends house and tell him this.  He does one more test where he puts 0.5A through the coils to check for a bad winding/short.  It checks out fine.  The conclusion is that the stator is poorly designed and can only put out a maximum of 175W!

This would explain the whole enchilada!

The hot and cold symptom:
The reason the voltage would drop when warm is that 175W was plenty to run the bike when cold.  After the fan would kick in, the battery would begin to discharge.  It would discharge to the point where once the fan turned off, the stator was trying to charge the battery in ADDITION to running the bike as well.  The additional load of charging the battery exceeded the output of the stator.  Thus the battery would NEVER come back to full charge.  As this would only happen when it is warm, I get the cold/warm signal.

Now back to the experiment I ran today:
By pulling the tail light, I freed up a couple of watts in the charging system.  When idling or running at steady speed, the stator put out enough power to run the bike and charge the battery.  When I hit the brake, the power consumed by the lights exceeded the stators output.  When I held the brake light on, it proceeded to discharge the battery.  When I let go of the brakes, this freed up watts to charge the battery.  This is why I would see the voltage climb up slowly.  The battery was recharging!  

So 175W was just a little bit more than what the bike needed to run and keep the battery charged.  Any additional load, blinker, brake light, etc., and the battery would start loosing charge.  When the additional load was removed, power was available to recharge the battery.

So, next experiment (the 45minute ride to the gym):
My friend suggested I pull the fuse to one of the two headlights.  This would free up between 35 and 55 watts of power.  IT WORKED!  I charged the battery before I left.  started the bike and POW...14.5V at idle.  As I was running down the freeway, I kicked on the high beam on the one headlight.  The voltage blipped but quickly (<1sec) returned to the 14.5V.    I threw the heated grips on Low.  Again a blip.  But again the voltage quickly returned to 14.5.  The I turned the heated grips on high.  Again a blip.  Yet again a quick return to 14.5.  I even had the grips on high, the one high beam, and had the brake lights on.  13.7V!

So it all makes perfect sense.  The voltage will only drop below the charging voltage of the battery, ~ 13.1V, if the power consumption of the motorcycle exceeds the output of the stator.  At this point, the battery is now discharging by contributing power to run the system.  Power needs to be freed up, e.g. turning off a headlight, in order to charge the battery.  

When the power to run the bike is just less than the power output by the stator, you can get into difficult situations.  Any additional load will begin to discharge the battery.  When the additional load is removed, the system must now charge the battery creating an additional load.  If this additional load does not cause the total power required to exceed the charging systems output, the the battery will recharge.  If i t does exceed the total output, the the voltage death spiral begins.  

In short, my stator is not putting out enough power.   Not because there is a short somewhere in the system, but because it was not designed properly to put out more than 175W.  I was playing a balancing act with power required by the motorcycle and output power of the stator.  

As a side note, my stator was replaced by the PO.  IIRC, he replaced it with an Electrosport model.  There have been questions in the past about the quality of the Electrosport 955 stator.  So I ordered a Ricks.  We'll see how this goes.

I hope the post not only address an understanding of the specific problem and symptoms both Andy and I have experienced, but also provides a better understanding of the charging system in general.  

Regardless, be sure the charging system is putting >13.1V to the battery.  If not, start peeling back electrical loads until it does.  If the voltage does not come back up, then your charging system is hosed!  It's time to swap the entire system right Stretch?

Thanks and I'll keep you posted.

[sanjoh]

Good work.

Sounds like some green energy saving upgrades are needed, can you say LED.

[Stretch]

The 955i charging system is supposed to be able to produce about 350 watts.  With yours producing 175, something is wrong.  Bench tests are a good place to start, but can somtimes show everything to be okay, yet the system won't put out like it's supposed to.  As you've noticed, output is affected by temperature, so when the bench tests are done, the system is at a much cooler temperature than when the bike has been on the road for a couple hours.

Regardless, be sure the charging system is putting >13.1V to the battery.  If not, start peeling back electrical loads until it does.  If the voltage does not come back up, then your charging system is hosed!  It's time to swap the entire system right Stretch?

There's not a lot to it other than Stator, R/R and the Sasquatch Fix.  The flywheel / alternator rotor is a permananet magnet that should never need replacement or repair.

[AndyM]

I think I've figured it out...with the help of my EE friend of course.

I pulled the fuse on the tail light.  Just a hunch I say.

At idle (2k RPM), 14.5V on the meter.  Cruising down the highway on low beams and no heated grips, 14.5V.  When I would hit the blinker, drop in voltage into the 13s.  Back up to 14.5 shortly after resetting the turn indicators.  When I would hit the brakes, drop into the 13s.  If I stayed on the brakes, lets say coming to a complete stop at a light, the voltage would drop into the 12s.  Then after letting go of the brakes, the voltages would slowly ramp up to the 14.5 volts seen before.  Hmmm....

I did pretty much the same thing by pulling one of the fuses so the bike ran with only one headlight, (reducing the load by 55w.) Bike would run perfect at 14.4v. Add the headlight back in and the bike was on the ragged edge and just using a turn signal or hitting the brakes would cause the voltage to drop to the 12-13 range.

Now on my bike this was after I had installed an Esport stator. You don't say if you are still using the stock stator or if you've changed it already.
From my experience stay far far away from anything made by
Electrosport. Rick's sells a good product at half the OEM cost.

What tests did you run to determine you were getting 175w?

[mrazekan]

There's not a lot to it other than Stator, R/R and the Sasquatch Fix.  The flywheel / alternator rotor is a permananet magnet that should never need replacement or repair.

I know I know!  The system is so stinking simple! I should not be having these problems.  I thought that maybe the rotor overheated and the perm magnates lost their field strength when warm.  But this was just conjecture.  As stated, the bike now charges fine, with the one headlight fuse pulled.  14.5V under almost ANY conditions.  Including single high beam and  heated grips on low.  

Now on my bike this was after I had installed an Esport stator. You don't say if you are still using the stock stator or if you've changed it already.
From my experience stay far far away from anything made by
Electrosport. Rick's sells a good product at half the OEM cost.

What tests did you run to determine you were getting 175w?

I believe the current stator is an Esport unit installed by the PO.  I believe it is poorly designed and therefore only outputs a maximum of ~175 watts.  I believe this because all of the tests, hot or cold, show a perfectly functioning charging system with the exception of the voltage across the battery,, and the current from the RR to the battery.  Basically, none of the components are failing.  The stator is just not putting out enough power.  I have a Ricks on order.  

My EE friend let me borrow this cool tool with 5 0.05Ohm resistors wired in parallel.  You wire the output of the RR to the input of this box.  The output of the box goes to the battery.  You then measure the voltage drop across the resistors.

Code Select Expand

Measured Voltage across resistors (145mV) / Resistance (0.01Ohms) = 14.5 Amps
So I have 14.5 Amps of current going from the RR to the bike.  The voltage across the terminals is 12V.

Code Select Expand

Measured Current (14.5A) * Measured Voltage across battery (12V) = ~ 175 Watts

So the charging system; stator, rotor, and RR, is only putting out a maximum of 175 Watts when the voltage across the battery terminals is 12V.  The charging system can do no more!  If I could measure the power leaving the battery, I would assume it is more than the power coming in to the battery.  

So by pulling one headlight, the total power being used by the bike is less than the output of the charging system.

Hope this answered the questions!