Steamer Misfire question (and new member introduction)

[Suitor_Stu]

**Warning long post ahead!*

Hello guys, my name is Stu and I'm in Inverness, Scotland.  Been lurking on this forum since I bought my Steamer in September 2009 (I've also got an '82 BMW R100RS and a Royal Enfield Bullet 500) and I managed to get some decent riding in before it started to play up a wee bit - just feeling a little sluggish on the pick-up and stuff, although admittedly I was only really doing a bit of in-town in the last few weeks before the problem started.

That was getting into the end of November but then the snow came so I just decided to lay her up for the winter anyway and get on with a service and fault-finding when the weather improved a bit, but partly due to a few things coming up (not least breaking my ankle on my snowboard 6 weeks ago!) I've left it until now to actually get round to the fault-finding mission.

So quick run through then - bike's a '96 steamer with just shy of 23ks on her, before I started all this the main problem was that I felt there was a little bit of sluggishness in the pick-up but nothing major - had been running fine from when a bought her though.  I got a simple service done which just consisted of new plugs, oil and filter change and air filter clean (was a K 'n' N number), but after putting things back together and dropping in a freshly charged battery there was still a definite misfire.  This seemed to get worse higher in the range, but almost hard to tell it was there at idle apart from being a bit more lumpy than normal -  no problems starting though.

Pulling the plugs with the fresh ones in place I could see that cylinder 2 was still virgin - no combustion at all and I was going through the revs a bit just to check carbs etc.  So onto here, quick search of other threads reveal the coils to be a weak point.  Mine are PVL ones, which seem to be the better ones, but nevertheless I tested them with multimeter and all came up with similar resistance readings (same with HT leads).  Just to make sure I switched the cy3 and cy2 coils and leads about to see if this produced any joy from cy2, but no (I even switched the plugs too, and the virgin one got all dirty in cy3).

Carbs were then pulled and dismantled and cleaned.  Float bowl heights are sound and there were no noticable blockages.  I didn't touch the sync stuff as I don't have a vacuum guage so this could possibly be a problem?  Either way, all reassembled and still no fire from c2.

The only thing I haven't checked as yet is the valves, but taking the engine out of the frame to get at the valves is really on the limit of my ability (I'm only an amateur mechanic despite owning a Royal Enfield...).  They were last done at either the 15000 or 18000 mile service (not sure which, but I have receipt from previous owner somewhere) so could they need done again?

Starting to get a bit miffed now TBH as the really good weather is already here and with my leg almost ready to come out of plaster I want to be enjoying the Tig ASAP!  I know these bikes do go wrong, but I have gelled with this beast in a way that I have only ever done with my Enfield and I really don't want to be forced to chop it in for an 1150GS (which was the other option for purchase when I bought the Tig).  So please can anyone give me any ideas of anything else it could be before I'm forced to give my local dealers 'the call' asking them to take it away?



Cheers, Stu



Oh, and whilst I'm here, here's a few pics of some places I visit...


My Enfield - Outside Braemar


On the famed road into Applecross
     

And finally my Steamer just outside Achnasheen

[Mustang]

you don't have to pull the engine out to check the valves

see this thread here http://tigertriple.com/forum/index.php/msg,34259

when you say virgin plug on #2 does it come out wet with petrol or dry
if dry then theres your problem its not getting fuel


and # 2 is the 'MASTER ' cylinder so my thought is turn the idle up with the adjuster and see if #2 comes alive  if it does but engine is idling too fast then you will need to do a carb sync by adjusting the screws on #1 and #3 carb linkage to reduce the idle by matching the vacuum setting of #2 on #3 and #1

[JetdocX]

Some fantastic scenery there!  Thanks for the pics!

Mustang will be along shortly to help you with your mechanical woes. :D

Is it hard to start?  Tight intake valves will usually cause this symptom long before the cyclinder dies completely.  A compression gage may tell you a little about what's going on in cylinder 2.  And while you've got it out, hook the plug up and ground the threads to the engine and see if you are getting any spark at the #2 plug.

Edit:  Damn that Mustang guy is fast. :lol:

[Suitor_Stu]

Cheers guys!

So Mustang, 2 things - 1) do I just loosen the screws on the camshaft cover then it'll lift off?  I assumed cause there was barely enough room to remove plug 2 that it wouldn't come off without the engine out...and 2) without wanting to sound too much like a Neophyte, how wet would wet be?  I mean when I pulled it there weren't obvious droplets on the plug (it smelled a bit of petrol but I dunno if that was just the environment I was in - or my hands!), but should I pull plug 2 and place it on paper and if there's moisture on it that way or would there be obvious droplets?

And JetDocX, don't have any trouble starting it - fires up just as it did before just with a more 'twinny' sound.  There is a decent fat blue spark from all 3 plugs when pulled too.  Also was going to give the compression test thing a go, but figured that I prob wouldn't be able to get the engine hot enough to get the accurate reading - thus if I've exhausted all other possibilities and still no joy then send it to someone who can do the valves.

[Mustang]

it will be wet with gasoline and you can smell it
now if you have a nice fat spark on it and you had fuel getting to it it would run (#2)
my bet is you are not getting fuel from #2 carb .......turn the idle adjuster way up and see if #2 comes alive

and if no joy you need to do a compression test like Jetdocx said
if you don't have good compression you could have valves with no clearance on #2 possibly the exhausts and or intakes
generally the intakes tighten up

what happens when you put the choke on ?

[Suitor_Stu]

I'll give it a go again tomorrow (doubt my neighbours would appreciate me giving the Tig a fast idle at 10pm!), but as I said I don't think the plug was soaking anyway...but if I increase the idle screw and there was a blockage somewhere in the line would this not just affect the idle circuit?  The cylinder refuses to fire throughout the throttle range, and it doesn't make any difference if the choke is on...

Sorry for all the questions - turns out that in the 40yrs since my Enfield was designed British engineering got a wee bit more complicated...

[Sin_Tiger]

+1 on the other guys diagnoses, sounds more like a compression issue.

Good to see another Jockanese Steamer  :D

That Braemar shot is a cracker, Heatbeat with a dash of single malt  

[MtheTiger]

Hi Suitor_Stu

Welcome to this grrreat forum I joined earlier this year because I treated myself on(with?) a beauty: Caspian Blue Steamer 1997 with Daytona cams, BOS exhausts, alarm, GIVI set & centerstand.
Blue is the way to go (others might not agree here  :lol: ).
Now I'm rebuilding for a short trip to Scotland from 12-15 May.
You're from Inverness I see. We do not come quite there but in the neighbourhood => Loch Ness....Ft. William...Queensferry etc...
Nice pics too....the Applecross Road (& Skye) we will visit nex time.

cheers

Markus

[Suitor_Stu]

Right then lads - Got in from work today and though 'bugger it I'm getting myself a beer and going to set to work on the bike'.  SO as such, didn't bother the fast idle check but went straight ahead and pulled the head off the Tig...

Anyway, my clearances in mm were as follows;

    Cy1            
0.20  0.20    

0.11  0.12  

    Cy2
0.20  0.18

0.09  0.08

    Cy3
0.18  0.18

0.15  0.13

So as you can see the intakes on Cy2 (my misfiring cylinder) are slightly out.  Question now is though is this a big enough difference to be causing it?  Certainly makes sense when I think about the symptoms - eg that it would die if throttle opened quickly, but could cope (well apart from the misfire) with slow increase in throttle, but it's only 0.01mm from what is considered normal!


So I take it this £50 shim tool is the way forward then?  Not going to lie, not completely enthused about the prospect of spending more money on 'boring' things like shim tools, when it could be spent on other 'fun' things like beer and petrol, but I suppose I can't spend it on petrol till it runs on all 3 again!

Would it be worth my while changing all the shims whilst I'm in here - ie changing the ones right on the limits at 0.20/0.15 to something more middling in the range?  Again, never really worked on this sort of machine before (My Enfield's tappets are regularly adjusted through a window on the engine at the roadside using finger pressure and a 10mm spanner!).

Cheers again guys,
Stu

[Mustang]

the intakes on #2 while out of spec won't be causing the problem you are having ......they won't give you trouble until they are at almost zero clearance .
I would put the valve cover back on for now and find out what the real reason # 2 isn't firing

but you do need to tend to the tight intakes eventually and when you do set them on the high side of the spec ..15 mm
and pull the cams if you have to do all 6 intakes .you won't need a shim tool

Do a compression test or at least crank up the idle to see if #2 comes alive
your carb sync could be wacky  

a compression test will tell the story
if you got spark , fuel and compression it WILL run
something is missing on # 2 in that equation .

[Suitor_Stu]

and @ MtheTiger

You're going to have a good time!  You seeing family/friends whilst over here?  I ask because you put Queensferry in your destination list and whilst I'm sure it's a grand place, it's not famed for being a great biking route - especially when you're heading for the west coast!

If you want my advice (and feel free to tell me where to shove it of you don't!) I would be looking to spend a wee bit more time on the west...anywhere north and/or west of Fort William will be decent riding, and although the A82 up the side of Loch Ness is an amazing ride too, it can be all too full of caravans/mobile homes and Mr. Plod with his speed gun during the summer months.

If you can make it this far the road from Scourie to Ullapool (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=scourie&daddr=Ullapool&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=56.701961,-5.115166&sspn=0.049382,0.154324&ie=UTF8&ll=58.186633,-4.638977&spn=0.758694,2.469177&z=9) is quite possibly one of the finest roadways in the country.  It's a proper rollercoaster ride taking you from sea level to hundreds of feet in the air.  You get it all, from pine forests, cliff tops, sea lochs - thats if you can tear your eyes away from the road!  Here's a pic of my Tig and a mate's CB1300 just outside Kylestrome as the road sweeps down to sea level just after rounding a cliff.



If not though (and I appreciate you may have other things going on), be sure to have a wee go on this road (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=North+Ballachulish,+Fort+William&daddr=56.699794,-5.085468+to:Glencoe,+Ballachulish&hl=en&geocode=FZwYYQMdnfGw_ylD7_osQjaJSDEwVbw2np4eaA%3B%3BFTboYAMdTCWy_yl1syl76jCJSDHnMhfC8-Dc0Q&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=13&via=1&sll=56.685937,-5.142288&sspn=0.049403,0.154324&ie=UTF8&ll=56.701961,-5.115166&spn=0.049382,0.154324&z=13).  Doesn't really take you anywhere, but it is affectionately known as the 'Scotsburgring' by those in the know, which should say a lot.  It's an amazing wee piece of tarmac with loads of twists, bumps, turns and generally quite good surfacing.  And the major bonus is that because it pretty much goes nowhere, from nowhere, you rarely see a caravan/mobile home on it (which in the summer in Scotland is quite a feet!)


I feel like I should be getting commission from the tourist board for Scotland here...

[Geoff D]

Thanks for the link Stu, have saved it for future reference

[Suitor_Stu]

a compression test will tell the story

Cheers for all the help thus far - will give the idle thing a go then if that's not the cause will be going out tomorrow to try and source a 12mm bit for my compression tester.  Seriously hope it ain't anything more sinister than a wee bit of idling adjustment now although the more I find out the more I think it may be...

Ach well, I'll get there eventually, even if it does mean I get no riding done during the summer!

[rf9rider]

Could it be the coils breaking down under load or when getting hot?

Had this problem on an old YZF750 i rebuilt.

It would idle and run fine until it got hot.

[Mustang]

except he said the plug comes out of that #2 as a virgin with no soot and has a spark when checking ...........I say no fuel going to  or thru #2 carb

oh yeah he swapped coils around too and made no difference .