Hello everybody, I am very new to this community. Just purchased a 97 steamer not running with 47k miles for $650 US. It died on the guy one day and he jut wanted to unload it. I was hoping it would be something really simple, but that is not looking like the case. I pulled the valve head cover off and couldn't find anything obvious, so it looks like I'm going to have to pull the head gasket to see what is going on. When I turn the engine over by hand it is really tough to turn with it gets to TDC, so it could be shredded internally.
I am thinking of just doing an engine swap rather than spend a fortune rebuilding this. What other engines are compatible with a 97 tiger? I have seen some pretty attractively priced Sprint, Adventurer, and Daytona running engines on ebay and I am thinking this may be the way to go if it looks ugly when I pull the head. All the engines look very similar so I am assuming they may be interchangeable. Anyone know for sure?
Looking forward to getting a lot of great advice here.
Thanks.
all the early t309't409 engines are the same
most have a different shift drum in them though which will make the gear pattern backwards compared to a steamer . easy enough though to swap the steamer shift drum into though .
The tbird legend and adventurer engines don't look right in a steamer though .
sprint motors make damn fine replacements for a steamer .
early speed triple motor works too but to fully utilize the hp you need to get the ecu/igniter and carbs that go with it.
Ok perfect. Going to pull the head tomorrow, and there are a couple sprint engines on ebay that I could go for if it doesn't look good. Sounds like that would be the way to go both for price and ease.
When you say difficult to turn over, is it difficult as in:
A. Graunchy noises
B. Dropped valve
C. Good compression
I wouldn't be too quick to yank it apart if it doesn't need it. At the very least you'll have to re-seat and re-seal the liners. Which will be a pain you find nothing wrong.
I figured out that the difficulty turning over was only due to a valve being open as the inlet cam was not timed correctly as the cam chain skipped. When I took the camshafts off and reset the timing marks, it turned just like it should. However, after I reset the camshafts and lined the timing marks up, the bike turned over by hand perfectly the first few times. Then, on the fourth or fifth revolution, I watched the cam chain skip on the exhaust cam and become loose. Then the timing marks were no longer lined up and the bike was all out of whack again. If I kept rotating the engine, the chain would tension up again, then skip again after a couple turns. I can't figure out what would be causing the chain to just skip like that. The cam chain tensioner does not appear to be failing, as I don't see the guide moving at all.
What would be causing the chain to do that? Is it just a worn out chain? I don't understand why it turns over so well the first few revolutions then skips...
When I first pulled the valve head cover off several weeks ago, I was turning the engine with the electric starter and the cam chain just came right off. I'm figuring it died on the PO because the chain skipped and the timing went out of whack.
any advice I could get would be very helpful... I am stumped!
the front chain blade is probably worn out , as well as chain
you need a new chain ,new blade tensioners as well as probably the top pc. that goes between the two sprockets
the top piece you are talking about is the chain guide, correct? Is there any other thing that could cause the chain to slip like that? I just don't understand why the tension would hold so well for a few revolutions, then just skip after a few turns..
Where can I get these parts? Where do you find new parts for a bike this old?
any triumph dealer can order the parts you need .
or you can go to http://www.bikebandit.com
more specifically here http://www.bikebandit.com/1997-triumph-tiger-885/o/m147367#sch561451
you need item's 6,7,8,9 and 15
will sit you back about 250 bucks with shipping , plan on 2 weeks for delivery
I'd be tempted to replace the cam sprockets while you're at it. In my experience once they have jumped they are prone to doing it again. The tips of sprockets don't get the same degree of hardening as the lead bearing surfaces, I've seen this in factory production processes.
This is one of the reasons why final drive sprockets go "off" very quickly once the chain stretches beyond design tolerances and you should always replace as a drive assembly set.
You are probably right about replacing the sprockets as well. I am just a bit nervous of shelling out all that money for these parts when the first time the cam chain skipped while the PO was driving the bike there may have been some internal damage. I have no way of knowing this without pulling the head, but I don't want to pull the head if I don't have to. I am looking at over 300 bucks in parts if I replace the sprockets as well, and I could potentially get a running engine with less miles on ebay for about 500...see my predicament?
Thank you for all the advice, and thanks for directing me to the parts website Mustang
Maybe this isn't a good time to add the caveat about buying an engine with an unknown history but my conscience ain't allow that :icon_confused:
That is very true. Unfortunately, I bought this bike not running with 47k miles so I guess I don't really know the history of this one either! :icon_scratch:
there wont be any damage from the chain jumping and changing valve timing
these are not interference fit motors .
the valves can only come in contact with piston in a catastrophic failure like the crank broke or the rod snapped.
That is very good to know. So I am now looking at changing camchain guides, camchain, and possibly cam sprockets. Do you have to pull the head to change the front camchain guide? I am afraid doing this is almost not worthwhile and I might just go for a new (used) motor..
Quote from: engine22 on January 17, 2014, 08:49:54 PM
That is very good to know. So I am now looking at changing camchain guides, camchain, and possibly cam sprockets. Do you have to pull the head to change the front camchain guide? I am afraid doing this is almost not worthwhile and I might just go for a new (used) motor..
:nod yep , had a look in the triumph bible and the front chain rub strip is held in by the cylinder head .
it's a head off job for certain !
Quote from: engine22 on January 15, 2014, 10:05:45 PM
Hello everybody, I am very new to this community.
Looking forward to getting a lot of great advice here.
Thanks.
Glad you found your way here. The good news is as I told you folks here can tell you what is going on with your engine. The bad news is now you know what is going on and how much work and money to fix it.
Id replace the cam chain tensioner and try again ....... I think youll be ok
Bummer dude!! Thought I might get out with an easy fix! At least I know a head pull is an absolute necessity. Now I'm really starting to question whether its worth the trouble with a 47k mileage engine, or just do an engine swap.. Looking at this engine now: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-Triumph-Thunderbird-900-Engine-Assembly-Runs-Strong-23K-Motor-With-Warranty-/230876388269?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35c14e1bad&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-Triumph-Thunderbird-900-Engine-Assembly-Runs-Strong-23K-Motor-With-Warranty-/230876388269?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35c14e1bad&vxp=mtr). I know it wouldn't look quite right, but its half the mileage and the seller guarantees the engine with a warranty..
Chrisw I am going to try that as well. I ordered a used cam chain, tensioner, and guides on ebay for 40 bucks today. I will try the new tensioner when they get here and that would just be lovely if you were right.
97Tiger885 Thanks for referring me here. Getting tons of great info really making this process a lot easier. Definitely looking to be more expensive than I hoped, but I got the bike for $650 loaded, so even if I have to fork out for a new engine, it is still worth it.
:nono not only is the tbird engine going to look strange it's way down on hp compared to a steamer engine and you won't have the lovely flat torque curve of a steamer .
IT will also be a 5 speed that shifts ass backwards IIRC
if you are going to use a used chain , I would at least put a new spring in the tensioner
fix it right and you'll be rewarded with many many thousands of more miles
take the cheap way out and it WILL grenade .
do whatever floats your boat though .
edit: that ebay motor is being called a 1995 t bird sport engine . it's not
it's a plain jane 5 speed 68 hp t bird motor
by the time you are done with shipping you will be just shy of a grand out of pocket .
fix yours for 350 bucks
would be a no brainer for me .
Good point, didn't know the power was so different on that bike. Don't worry, I'm only using the used stuff to test some stuff out like the chain tensioner and rear guide (stuff I can test without pulling the head). I am not planning on this being a permanent fix, just a way I can test out some stuff before I spend a lot of money.
Just read your edit Mustang. Copy that, you are right. I'll take your advice and spend the $350 for new parts. I think I will pull the head before I order the parts since I will have to anyways. This way I can at least verify for sure that there is no valve damage.
get yourself a repair manual .
label and mark everything when you take it apart .
the cam caps cannot be interchanged with other positions they must go back on exactly where they came from . same goes for the buckets and shims
and there are a couple of hidden fasteners that hold the head on .
Quote from: engine22 on January 17, 2014, 04:30:08 PM
I guess I don't really know the history of this one either! :icon_scratch:
Very true. At least you're in the right place for support and I think you've the right frame of mind.
I too think ChrisW might be right. Engine off the CCT will move forward under spring tension and the dog teeth will lock. Start it up and a worn dog tooth lets go and the chain goes slack and jumps the cogs. Engine stops, CCT re-tensions, and so on.......
Yeah, I think if I'm going to the trouble I might as well replace the cam sprockets. Total parts will set me back about 380, but I only paid 650 for the bike, and while I'm at it I could do a valve check and replace the head gasket, so I would really be doing a hell of a tune up and probably extending engine life quite a bit. This bike is loaded, all the luggage, engine guards, grip warmers, aux lights, etc. So really, getting a bike like this for just over a grand (and some sweat equity) is really still pretty great. Especially considering my current bike is a KLR650 and I am selling it for about 2k now that I have this. I am getting one hell of an upgrade, and coming out ahead.
Thank you guys for all your help. I will keep you updated as the project continues. Right now I am just waiting for parts.
If you do all that, your valves are good, give the carbs a once over, carb rubbers you should look at closely, I think your efforts will leave you with a damn good bike for the money :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on January 18, 2014, 11:07:45 AM
I too think ChrisW might be right. Engine off the CCT will move forward under spring tension and the dog teeth will lock. Start it up and a worn dog tooth lets go and the chain goes slack and jumps the cogs. Engine stops, CCT re-tensions, and so on.......
BixxerBob if you can ChrisW are right I would be a very happy camper. Like I said I ordered a used CCT so I can test this theory before pulling the head.
How much pressure should it take for the CCT be under before a dog tooth lets go? I originally thought this was the problem when I started pulling stuff apart as I was able to get the CCT to give in with a fair amount of pressure with my hand. I couldn't really see any visible wear on the dog teeth, but I was under the impression it should never give in except under extreme pressure?
If nothing else I am learning a lot about this bike...
It shouldn't give in at all. Period. Look again, there is wear somewhere and you have found the problem. Either one of the teeth, the ratchet pawl, or sideways play in the plunger.
If you are going to pull the head, Mustang will point you to the relative info for re-seating the liners, it's another must do.
Alright well I will pop the new CCT in as soon as it gets here and let you guys know what happens. That would certainly save a big headache. I thought that the CCT should never give and I became very excited when I first started suspecting this was the problem because its such an easy fix.
Sorry to barge in fellas, but this is a great thread! All the help for E22's Steamer is terrific, sounds like he'll have her run'n in no time flat. :thumbsup
did it sound like this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY_OcqboxHg cam chain tensioner was my problem. made a quick temp repair that lasted 3 years by drillin out the nut at the end of the tensioner and threading it for i think an m10 bolt. was a long bolt and had to grind down the end to fit in the tensioner blade but it worked as you can see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwcT25bEZgc
Ok guys thought I would give you an update. The new camchain tensioner came in today and I popped it in and could immediately tell it was different than my apparently non functioning one. I reset the timing marks, put the new tensioner in, sprayed some starter fluid in and boom! Fired right up! Sure enough like many of you guys said, the CCT was the problem! Thank you guys for all of the help. I will piece it all back together tomorrow and take her for a spin and give another update.
I could not have done it without all of your help. Just look at my earlier posts. I was about to buy a new engine when all I needed was a $40 camchain tensioner!
Thank you so much guys! More updates to follow!
Congrats on getting it up and running. :eusa_clap By the way, that bike wouldnt happen to be black would it?
:hello2 if you've got weather to ride :XXsunsmile :wheel
As a matter of fact it is black. I'll get a picture and a video of it up and running posted here in a little bit. And it is just my lucky day because we are having an extremely weird spell of 50 degree weather here in Durango, CO. :wheel
I could not be happier!
:eusa_clap glad ya got it sorted and fixed.
Rybes I had the exact same reaction as you did in that second video when the bike started. Great feeling
Here is a video of the bike alive and well. Just went for a ride on it and its running perfectly!
http://youtu.be/mh7nCLc4coE (http://youtu.be/mh7nCLc4coE)
One more quick question for you guys. I broke the little terminal for the plug that plugs the yellow wire into the engine on the top left end of the valve head cover. This is the only electrical plugin up there. What does this go to? Is it the engine temp guage?
Yeah, it just runs the gauge, your fan works off another sensor.
Quote from: engine22 on January 25, 2014, 05:46:28 PM
Rybes I had the exact same reaction as you did in that second video when the bike started. Great feeling
:eusa_clap :thumbsup its the best feelin aint it :wheel
Glad it was a simple fix. Always best to try the easy stuff first, and good of Mr Bloor's men to design an engine that doesn't grenade itself if something as simple as a CCT fails!! :thumbsup
Good fix :thumbsup Came across this recently http://www.aperaceparts.com/tech/tensioners.html
Seems that the tensioner on most bikes can fail on repeated HEAVY De-acceleration,back of cam-chain loads up the tensioner? Owners of race bikes fit the manual one to prevent this. Might be a bit extreme for normal riding,but as Mustang stated,fitting a new spring,which are available on ebay,would be worth doing anyway? (Spring length should be 73.7mm)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cam-Chain-Tensioner-Spring-Kit-Triumph-Daytona-Trophy-Sprint-Tiger-Trident-/290798758594?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item43b4f4eac2
Quote from: Bixxer Bob on January 27, 2014, 12:35:11 PM
Glad it was a simple fix. Always best to try the easy stuff first, and good of Mr Bloor's men to design an engine that doesn't grenade itself if something as simple as a CCT fails!! :thumbsup
You are right about that BixxerBob! I can't believe I am riding around the motorcycle I have always wanted and I'm only out $690! Thanks to all of you guys who helped me with tons of great info. I would not have been able to figure it out without all of your knowledge :bowdown.
Interesting point about the CCT. A new spring would be a very good idea. A small investment for a little piece of mind.
Now that I have the bike running I have found that the speedometer doesn't work. I'm guessing it may just be a broken cable, but do you guys know if there are any common speedometer issues with this bike? Other than that its running like a top!
That's what I call a result :hello2
Hondas of the early 2000's are well known for the same, particularly the Varadero and Firestorm V twins.
Other than the cable, the drive from the front hub is the other likely suspect, as luck would have it the next most recent thread may provide the help you need.
Sure enough it is a broken cable. So far everything is an easy fix! Better to be lucky than good I guess.
Not of Irish descent are you :pimp jammy bugger :icon_rolleyes: