Events before sprag failure?

[harre]

Hi I have 98 Steamer. Was preparing for the first ride this year after a 40000 km service including valve adjustment at the local Triumph service shop in Umeå, Sweden. I only came about 100m before things went bad. It would not run above 3000 rpm, was slightly better with choke on, could just barely drive to the shop, they told me it was probably due to old gas in the carbs (?). Well, they drained the carbs, and unlikely it was running slightly better after this. Happy I drove home and changed the air filter to a K&N and mounted a centerstand. Then the bike would not run on all cylinders. Apparently it was only running on the middle one (#2), sparks were totally black but dry (except for the #2 spark). Tested with tt600 coils (used), no improvement. How can you tell which contact is the plus one one the TT600 coils?  If I connect these wrong could I destroy the spraig by leading high voltage to the block?
However I also noticed that the generator intermittantly gave up to +20V. After cleaning all connector surfaces to the rectifier in the generator the output was steady around 12,5V. Tried to start again but no improvement. Bike would not run well. Bought new plugs but the bike would not start with these, tested with both original and TT600 coils. Noticed then that the shop had given me the NGK DPR9EA (should be DPR8EA) plugs for some reason. Do not know if this caused the bike to not start, maybe the difference is small. Cleaned the old plugs in ethanol, but engine would not start with these either. All starting efforts make the battery weak, and I was getting bad whacking noices when starting, finally the starter would not work at all, was only getting these loud noices, presumably from the sprag clutch. Now it is impossible to start, clutch will not engage. I will take the bike back to the Triumph service shop tomorrow, but I am afraid that whatever is wrong will be very costly, and that the shop tells me that everything is my own fault, even though the bike was running well before the 40000 km service.
What to do? Is the sprag clutch repairable? Is this covered in a maintenance handbook? Here in Sweden bike and car repairs are really costly (high taxes and wages), so unless the shop takes some responsibility I'm in trouble I guess. The sad thing is that the original problem is unsolved and I have no idea why the bike would not run properly. It was running good before I put it in the garage in September. Any ideas?
One more thing, tried a Daytona (probably) 3-1 exhaust collector when assembling the centerstand and it actually fitted with under protective cage, it was really tight though (do not know what year of the Daytona). The right silencer connected to the collector with just a few cm shorter offset. It could work. I will dig into that later when (if) the motor runs again. Weight save will be 6 kg.
Am I jinxed because I test drove a 1200 GS the same day this happened? I really liked it too. Two tumbs up for german engineers, one tumb down for Triumph...

[Dr. Mordo]

Sound bad to me.  Trying to starting it with a dead battery is reported to cause sprag failure.  Certainly your symptoms sound like sprag failure.   I think it's very unlikely you fried the sprag with high voltage, but somewhat likely you killed it by trying to start with a dead battery.

Sorry for the bad news, and good luck getting the dealership to fix it.

[harre]

Oops. I now understand that the right worhd is sprag, sorry for my bad English.

[JetdocX]

Stay away from that dealer.  They fooked it up.  No doubt in my mind whatsoever.  The hard part is proving it without any mechanical knowledge on your side.  Do you have any other choices?  Even an independant shop?

[harre]

No other dealer choices for me, nearest is 450 km away. I'll keep you posted about any progress in the case. The bike is at the shop now I guess, but I don't want to hear from the guys right now, focusing on other things. I've got my new Tool Tube and Pro-Taper handlebar in the mail recently. Boy, can't wait to get her back!

[aeronca]

i hope things work out ok for you harre. javla idioter mekaniker, hopefully they wont screw you on the repairs.  keep us posted.         eric

[harre]

Update:
After two months, the shop mechanic finally took a look at my bike and concluded that firstly, it only runs on one cylinder and secondly that the sprag clutch is dead. Of course this sucks big time. I already knew this, and the bike ran perfectly well before the shop laid their hands on it the first time. However, I have no proof that the shop screwed things up and I'll just have to live with it. Therfore I am planning to replace the sprag myself this long winter. My question is which manual I will need for this job? The Haynes manual is half the price of the Triumph workshop manual, so I will go for the Haynes if it is just as good, but maybe the Triumph manual is covering more subjects. Any recommendations?
The mechanic thought that dirty carbs are causing the engine failures, therfore I will try to clean the carbs, and I would like to know if this is covered in any workshop manuals?
I have a -98 (chili red) and do not suspect that I have a DAR problem. Maybe this was fixed on the later models? However, I'll appreciate all suggestions about other things to check or replace when I have the engine down. I'll talk to Triumph Sweden about any discounts on the new sprag, but I have little hope.
One lesson learned: avoid the shop Norrlands MC in Umeå, Sweden.

[Mustang]

Harre
In going back to your original post you said you had valves adjusted and now the bike has starting problems , It does sound like YOU may have been the ONE who killed the sprag .
But it sure sounds like the shop screwed up the valve adjust . if they have them too tight you will never get it to run right on all cylinders . I would certainly check the valve clearances after repairing the sprag clutch . I doubt it is in your carbs . CHECK THE VALVES

[Dr. Mordo]

The Haynes manual is actually pretty good.  And when you are ready to start let me know and I'll give you some tips I figured out the hard way.

They're not secret or anything; I just don't have time to type them out right now.

[harre]

MUSTANG, I agree, the sprag was probably weak already before the service, but the starting problems after service definately killed the sprag. Nevertheless,  I just have to accept that the sprag is a weak point and move on. Thanks for the advice on the valves, I will check the clearances after the sprag job. I hopefully this is covered in the Haynes manual.
Dr. Mordo: Haynes it will be then. I'll contact you when things get started. Any ideas about how long the spag job will take? I have little experience of engine repairs but with the backup from you guys I am ready to give it a try.

[Dr. Mordo]

Checking the valves is in the Haynes manual.

It takes a long time to do the sprag.  I'm thinking at least 10 hours.  You'll ned a couple of tools that you may not have like a torque wrench that goes down to very small amounts of torque, and you'll need a motorcycle lift to get the engine out.

When I get home from work today I'll type out my recommendations.

[Dr. Mordo]

Ok.  I don't know how much wrenching you have done.  If you literally have done no work at all, then this is probly not where you want to start.  If you've done some simple things like starters, alternators, and brake jobs than this won't be too tough for you.

A some tools I highly recommend:

T55 Torx bit
12mm allen
Motorcycle lift
Some Rope
Torque wrench with a range of no more than 12nm up to 132nm (I used both a 3/8" drive and a 1/2"      
     drive torque wrench, and finding one that went all the way down to 12nm was a little tricky)
Blue Loctite

The first two you want in a socket form so you can use a torque wrench to tighten them to the proper tension.  The second two are invaluable when removing and installing the engine.  The smaller torque wrench is critical when reassembling the crankcase halves.  The Loctite is necessary for several different things, so don't forget to use it when Haynes recommends it!

Some tips:

The Haynes manual is good but has a couple of minor issues.

#1 - The procedure for removing the Sprag is under "Alternator/starter clutch drive - removal, inspection and installation" which took me a little while to find

#2 - Pulling the carbs is a pain, but a couple of things can make it easier.

   a) Instead of detaching the choke cable from the choke bar, slip loos the plastic lock that hold the bar in and pull the whole bar away from the carb assembly.  This serves two purposes which are releasing the choke cable but also getting the choke bar out of the way to make it easier to remove the throttle cable.  But be gentle and be very careful not to drop the plastic locks down in the intake manifold!!

   b) Open the carb butterfly and stick a large Sharpie marker in it to hold it open.  This makes it much easier to remove the throttle cable.

   c) I use one of the large faring bolts to cap off the fuel line from the carbs to keep gas from going everywhere.  They'll still leak if you don't keep them upright, though.

#3 - Removing the engine is a bit counterintuitive.  You remove the bolts, and then it is very difficult to get it to drop out of the frame.  It turns out that it is much easier to lift it up above the mounts, and then pull it out the side of the bike.  I often used rope looped under the engine and tied off to stabilize it as I moved the jack around.  

#4 - The Haynes book says to remove the clutch before splitting the cases which is totally unnecessary.  The clutch is no problem at all when left on the end of the output shaft.

#5 - They tell you to disassemble and examine the sprag.  While this may be interesting, it is unnecessary because none of the parts inside are sold individually by Triumph; you have to buy the whole sprag.

#6 - Don't replace the idler gear, which meshes with the sprag, unless it looks chewed.  I would bet that it is absolutely fine.

#7 - Stuff you'll need from Triumph, and it's been a while so I may be forgetting stuff here:

         gasket set for the crankcase

         numerous o-rings that are described in the Haynes book

         sprag clutch (of course)

         Haynes recommends you replace the engine mount bolts, I didn't do this, but it's up to you

         There are a bunch of seals and stuff around the transmission shafts - I didn't replace these, but it            
         really isn't a bad idea

         Gaskets for the left and right side engine covers (clutch, front sprocket cover, etc) - I used RTV        
         sealant on these instead of gaskets.  If I had it to do over, I'd get the gasket for the front
         sprocket cover, cause it is leaking a bit.  But I'd still just RTV the others.


The biggest things I can tell you are:

Be patient.  It's a big job, if you aren't an experienced mechanic it'll take a long time.  It's isn't that hard, just involved.  If you aren't sure how to proceed, ask us.  I don't know if Mustang has done a sprag (must be good karma paying off for him), but he's done everything else.  So between my sprag knowledge and his knowledge of everything else we should be able to get you sorted out.

The most common mistakes for an inexperienced mechanic to make are crossthreading or overtightening bolts.  The torque wrench should prevent overtightening, and you should always, always, always start the bolt by hand to be sure it is threaded correctly, and then tighten it with the ratchet.

Be thorough.  If you aren't an experienced mechanic you don't know which corners you can safely cut, so don't cut any that I haven't addressed above.

Be ready to wait for parts.  It is very likely that you will get the engine apart and realize that you need some obscure gasket or o-ring.  You order it and then have to wait for a week for it come from England.  You are going to hate yourself if you put it back together and it doesn't work right because you were impatient.

Take pictures so you can remember the pain and show off what a badass you are to your friends and family.  BTW, the exhaust pipes were only a pain in the ass because I didn't want to pull them apart.  Learn from me - pull them apart.  It's way easier.

My wife's dog, however, is a pain in the ass because he is the devil disguised as a terrier.

[harre]

Dr Mordo, thanks for the invaluable tips. It's not unlikely that I'll return to you with some more questions when I get started. I have all the necessary tools for the job, but I will have to check the torque wrenches to see if they'll go as low as you suggested. I have done my fair share of wrenching in my days (mostly to keep my cars running), so I know about crossthreading, overtightening, crushed knuckles and dropped parts. I understand that when treading on unknown ground one has to be careful, so I'll take my time. I'm not looking forward to remove the engine from the frame, but there is a first time for everything. I'll post some picts later. First I have to order the Haynes manual and contact Triumph for parts.

[steammoto]

With the help of Dr Mordo(and others) I was able to replaced the sprag with little difficulty. Patience and liquid wrench was key in maintaining my sanity.

A tip I received from 95tiger over on triumphrat... to aid in the removal and installation of the engine loosen the swingarm.

also here is a link to photos documenting the process, courtesy of stanware

http://stanware.digoxy.com/imageupload/ ... lery12.htm

[harre]

Steammoto. I have looked at the picts and was somewhat disencouraged. It's definately more complicated than I imagined. Nice to have all the picts though. They may come in handy. Thanks for sharing.