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Random spark issues

Started by ssevy, March 31, 2016, 07:33:16 PM

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ssevy

First, thanks to Mustang for some phone advice yesterday! Unfortunately, still trying to herd cats, it seems :icon_sad:
Here's the details:
First, it's a TBS, not a Tiger, which I am trying to help sort for a friend a couple of hours away, so yes, it is a frustrating experience. Since all of the important bits are the same as ours, I thought you brilliant gentlemen might have experienced something similar.
It's a 2004, about 19,000 miles, which he bought from a widow with very few miles on it. He said it has always been a hard starter, but began running like it was dropping cylinders. He installed an Ignitech igniter and new Nology coils and plugs, which seemed to fix things last season.
It started and ran fine for about 30 miles this spring, and then began acting up again. He pulled the Keihin carbs and had them rebuilt by a local shop. Prior to me driving down to help yesterday, he said he had spark, so I suspected the tech had set the floats wrong by using the Mikuni setting. I pulled the carbs apart, and everything was clean as a whistle and set correctly. Reinstalled the carbs, and checked for spark. No spark.
Checked the gap on the pick up coil, and it was fine. Per Mustang's help, the ohms were 5.8 and so within normal. Of course, this doesn't mean it might not still be bad, but only that it is not obviously bad.
Plugged in the original gill igniter, and no joy there either.
Swapped in some known good coils, and no change.
Tried cranking with the side stand up and down and the engine in neutral. Still no spark.
Clutch in or out didn't initially make any difference either. Tried it in gear with clutch out, and it wouldn't crank, which is what it should do. Clutch in, and it would crank as it should.
Swapped out the main 30 amp fuse for a new one, per Mustang's suggestion, and temporarily got one spark.
I then tried working the clutch lever back and forth in neutral, both stand up and down, and we got better sparks, but randomly. So, took the switch off and opened it. Lots of green funk, so cleaned it up. Retried, and again, random good spark, but then would go away.
Got a paper clip, and tried jumping the connector that attaches to the clutch switch, first to duplicate the circuit of clutch lever open, then closed. Cranked both ways, but no spark at all. With no jumper at all, wouldn't crank at all.
Reinstalled the cleaned clutch switch, and got the same random spark when working the lever, but nothing with lever fully in or out and not in motion.
Mustang suggested bad intake valve clearances on cylinder 1, but the valves were all checked and in spec less than 2000 miles ago. Cranking with my hand over the intake rubbers, there was a ton of suction there as well.
Also connected a car battery charger to it while cranking to boost the output, but no effect.
Another buddy had a similar hard starting Legend, and it turned out to need a new starter. In his case, however, it would crank strongly only for a short time before the battery acted like it was going flat, whereas in this current (  :icon_biggrin: sorry) situation, the battery cranks fast and doesn't fade.
I did take apart the switch assembly on the left grip to see if something in there could be loose and affected by the clutch lever cycling which seemed to help produce the sparks, but nothing looked loose. We did also try another main fuse, but that didn't have any effect.
What I can't understand is why jumping the clutch switch connector cable didn't produce something? The way the sliding copper contact is designed in the switch, you can either connect terminals 1 and 3 or 1 and 2, and it shouldn't do all 3 at once. So the paper clip should have replicated this. All I can imagine is that the switch being connected provides some kind of resistance that affects things, as it doesn't come in contact with anything when it is attached to the bike, as the screw is insulated by plastic.
Electrical gremlins like this are the biggest pain to diagnose, and based upon the history of hard starting, it seems like this problem may not be new? Of course, may not even be related. I also wonder if the neutral switch could be a factor, but don't know how cycling the clutch lever could be changing things if that is an issue? Also, would the neutral light even light up if the switch was bad?
At this point, he has a new clutch switch coming, and a new pick up coil. My plan is to ride my Legend down and use it to swap in and out parts to see if we can eliminate the igniter as the possible culprit. I am sure hoping someone here has "been there - done that", and I won't spend another day chasing my tail.
Anyone? :m
I may not be big, but I'm slow.

JayDub

I would say at this point, that it HAS to be worth trying a different pick-up coil... and checking all connections are clean and tight.
A battery charger won't do much as it only puts out a low charging current, but a battery with jump leads would be better (without the  engine running).

Sin_Tiger

There's some clues here that are sending me along the path of poor connections and or corrosion within the loom, green gunk in switch gear is the biggest clue. If this was a rebuild I'd be tempted to pull the loom completely and do some line checks. If you just want to get it going I'd suggest checking the voltage going into the igniter, not just once but monitor during start attempts.

I'm thinking you have some bad wiring or connectors somewhere in the igniter circuits. If that's the case the more you try to start the bottle neck will heat up and it goes into a viscous circle of a tail spin.

No point in me telling you to be methodical, bit like telling a bear to shit in the woods  :augie
I used to have long hair, took acid and went to hip joints. Now I long for hair, take antacid and need a new hip joint

ssevy

Thanks for all of the help. He ended up closing the gap on the pick up a bit, and it started for him. I am wondering if it was the sitting overnight on the charger that really made the difference? The gap was at spec when I checked, and he probably was using a different tab on the index wheel since we had cranked the engine since I took my measurement, but in any case, he found the gap to be too wide, and closed it up a bit. Since it came this way from the factory, and since it was not loose, I wonder how it could have moved?
Glad he has it running, but I don't trust that the issue is really resolved, although for his sake I hope it is.
I may not be big, but I'm slow.

Mustang

 :m

I guess don't look a gift horse in the mouth ..........................

ssevy

Quote from: Mustang on April 05, 2016, 05:12:07 AM
:m

I guess don't look a gift horse in the mouth ..........................

It's not the mouth I am concerned with :icon_mrgreen:
I may not be big, but I'm slow.

Sin_Tiger

Quote from: ssevy on April 05, 2016, 03:57:36 PM
It's not the mouth I am concerned with :icon_mrgreen:

Perhaps moving it altered the relative position of cables, connections a tad  :^_^ it goes,  :blah  no more.
I used to have long hair, took acid and went to hip joints. Now I long for hair, take antacid and need a new hip joint